The True Gospel of Christ's Saving Death

[DaveXR650]

How does one know Christ paid for one's sins in order to believe He did? It is either impossible or the general redemption is some how presumed or believed from Scripture. Like Romans 5:8.

Well, that's the whole point as far as I am concerned. I agree with Owen, that all you need to understand is that if you come to Christ He will save you. But I understand the logic you are using and that's one of the reasons I don't push a particular atonement. I wouldn't want that to be an impediment to someone. A lot of Calvinists hedge on the meaning of a "limited atonement" and some of the older writers didn't seem to discuss it much at all. There is some doubt as to whether Calvin believed it.

 

[DaveXR650]

Man does not have a "libertarian free will".

I agree. When I say free will I mean that we are free to do what we are most inclined to do and nothing more. Thus, before the Holy Spirit works on us our natural inclination is not to be interested in the gospel or be concerned about sin beyond the level of hard wired human "virtue" and "honor" which is necessary for the species to survive. (Or maybe there is a level of what they called "common grace" also). But we don't have withing our natural selves an inclination to come to Christ in saving way.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"We should first send men to the school of faith before we send them to the University of election,"
John Rogers, early English Reformer.

Rodgers then musta been your typical Calminian. Here’s what it really says, WE as those who want to insert themselves as important to Gods plan of salvation; should meaning must ie insert man’s control and insert in man’s faith before Gods election. TOTAL ARROGANCE towards a sovereign God.

 

[DaveXR650]

There is not doubt that regeneration precedes both faith and repentance from dead works.

I wouldn't argue the point because it may be milliseconds or the same time. Logical order? Yes.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree. Tell them the entire gospel of Christ from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. There is no valid reason anyone who claims to be a Christian should be opposed to doing so.

Without the intervention of the Holy Spirit you are wasting your and their time.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You silly Calvinists always keep running back to the same misunderstanding of salvation. Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in His son. So it is 100% salvation by God and it is in response to man trusting in His son just as the bible says. So the question is, why do you hold to a false gospel?

You then must hold to the catholic doctrines of salvation… silly papists.

 

[KenH]

Without the intervention of the Holy Spirit you are wasting your and their time.

I don't think it is ever a "waste of time" to proclaim the gospel of Christ. God's elect are not walking around with an "Elect of God" sign on their foreheads in order to know who they are so that the gospel can be taught to them. Besides, God is absolutely totally sovereign so anyone we talk with is because God has sovereignly purposed it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I wouldn't argue the point because it may be milliseconds or the same time. Logical order? Yes.

So what? Define your understanding of Faith if you are so inclined… because I still do not understand where you position it on the timeline of things.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't think it is ever a "waste of time" to proclaim the gospel of Christ. God's elect are not walking around with an "Elect of God" sign on their foreheads in order to know who they are so that the gospel can be taught to them. Besides, God is absolutely totally sovereign so anyone we talk with is because God has sovereignly purposed it.

Actually they are walking around with a sign vis-à-vis a hunger for the biblical truth and want exegesis. And let me be clear, this is a very critical time for them to get the proper teaching thus the proper understanding of scripture which is a challenge in this world … to get it right. My brother has been stumbling around for years… even the Bible school he attended for 4 years in order to learn taught him to, Name it & Claim it nonsense… and he took that crap to a church as a qualifier to be a pastor… for crying out loud!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Apparently, you do not believe Christ when He said, "It is finished." Apparently, you believe that Christ is only a partial savior and that His propitiatory death did not save anyone(and could end up saving no one) but did nothing more than to make everyone savable if they finish the work that Christ started. Thus, according to your teaching, Christ could end up saving no one at all if no one meets whatever conditions you think humans have to meet for salvation using their alleged "libertarian free will."

LOL… yes, commonly known as Arse Backwards theology! Back up the truck and you are in Rome learning the 7 Sacred works of Salvation … adding man made tradition to doctrine. How long has the Christian church moved in the wrong direction yet called it scriptural? ​

 

[DaveXR650]

So what? Define your understanding of Faith if you are so inclined… because I still do not understand where you position it on the timeline of things.

I mean the actual act of taking Christ at His word and coming to Him or receiving Him and relying on Him for salvation. Chronological timeline was not important to theologians in the past so I don't worry about it. Even when it comes to regeneration itself you have to be careful because there is ample evidence of real action of the Holy Spirit on people of various degrees at various lengths of time and we have no way of knowing how to differentiate that work and being born again. We also know that some come quite a way in belief or at least towards belief and yet then fall away or decide to go no further. Do they veto the calling by their own will? I don't know. When the Bible talks about giving people over to a reprobate mind I assume it means a withdrawal of gracious influence which should scare all of us because without the Holy Spirit I believe we have no chance of coming to Christ. But; does that mean that you are born again first and then later come to Christ? I think that is probably true but I can see how someone else might conclude that you believe after being convicted and then are born again. It's not a different gospel. They may even be right. When we try to do theology there are difficulties and logically you can take any theology to an absurd conclusion. They are worried about the concept of people walking around already saved and born again who have not believed yet and thus they conclude belief is now an "option". And I can see their point. If you are a student of Puritan sermons you will see that they did not do that but not everyone gets beyond the theology they pick up on the internet.

 

[Silverhair]

Apparently, you do not believe Christ when He said, "It is finished." Apparently, you believe that Christ is only a partial savior and that His propitiatory death did not save anyone(and could end up saving no one) but did nothing more than to make everyone savable if they finish the work that Christ started. Thus, according to your teaching, Christ could end up saving no one at all if no one meets whatever conditions you think humans have to meet for salvation using their alleged "libertarian free will."

Christ's death saved no one. His death covered the sin debt for humanity. 1 John 2:2 If He had not risen no one could be saved. Or perhaps you don't believe the bible.

1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
1Co 15:15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

It looks like you and EWF need to spend more time studying the bible rather than your Calvinist theology.

Why do you continue to deny scripture? You have been shown more that once that your philosophical view of salvation is wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL… yes, commonly known as Arse Backwards theology! Back up the truck and you are in Rome learning the 7 Sacred works of Salvation … adding man made tradition to doctrine. How long has the Christian church moved in the wrong direction yet called it scriptural? ​

How long are you going to deny scripture? How long are you going to follow a view that is based on pagan roots?

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
this thread will be closed no sooner than 0300 (Wed) GMT 11 pm EDT,Tue; 8 pm PDT, Tue.

 

[KenH]

Christ's death saved no one.

Well, at least you admit that you a conditionalist and do not believe the Bible that salvation is 100% by the free grace of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How long are you going to deny scripture? How long are you going to follow a view that is based on pagan roots?

Catholic theology takes much from pagans and interweaves it into Christianity as an appeasement con to deceive the ignorant. Should you reject it then you were generally executed. And that was the question they always asked, “how long are you going to deny our interpretation of scripture, how long are you going to deny the Church and our teachings & traditions, don’t you know we are the one true church and your works are vital toward your salvation blah blah blah”

I lived as a Roman Catholic for many years, believing the training from Nuns, Priests, Lay Teachers… watched pious people I loved ignore and provide excuses (shade) for pedophile priests (who represented those blessed and therefore special). They all taught me that it was up to me to decide my fate regarding my salvation… and this is what I see you doing, making it the responsibility of human creatures to be saved… Not Gods responsibility. You just haven’t gotten to the place you will execute those who put Gods Grace 1st and foremost. Not yet anyway, but presently you do demean them and accuse them…the same tactics employed by the Catholic Church to rein them in.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It looks like you and EWF need to spend more time studying the bible rather than your Calvinist theology.

Why do you continue to deny scripture? You have been shown more that once that your philosophical view of salvation is wrong.

The Popes all asked the same thing, right before the executions began.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I sometimes wonder if they would attempt to admonish our very dear brother & late administrator, Tom Cassidy that he needed to stop his Calvinism and study scripture more. Tom, being a Particular Baptist Pastor in California would have taken it upon himself to have schooled anyone with that approach to a brother Christian’s walk with Our Lord.

I fondly remember his common answer to most of my questions, “It’s Gods Grace that makes it possible.” Over and over and over again to reinforce to me the Sovereignty of Our God. Yes, I do remember fondly those conversations. Thank you Tom for your help at that critical time in my walk!

 

[Silverhair]

Well, at least you admit that you a conditionalist and do not believe the Bible that salvation is 100% by the free grace of God.

Still do not respond to the full post do you. Sure I agree with the bible, the question is why don;t you? God has set the condition of salvation is faith in His son, why do you deny this?

 

[Silverhair]

Catholic theology takes much from pagans and interweaves it into Christianity as an appeasement con to deceive the ignorant. Should you reject it then you were generally executed. And that was the question they always asked, “how long are you going to deny our interpretation of scripture, how long are you going to deny the Church and our teachings & traditions, don’t you know we are the one true church and your works are vital toward your salvation blah blah blah”

I lived as a Roman Catholic for many years, believing the training from Nuns, Priests, Lay Teachers… watched pious people I loved ignore and provide excuses (shade) for pedophile priests (who represented those blessed and therefore special). They all taught me that it was up to me to decide my fate regarding my salvation… and this is what I see you doing, making it the responsibility of human creatures to be saved… Not Gods responsibility. You just haven’t gotten to the place you will execute those who put Gods Grace 1st and foremost. Not yet anyway, but presently you do demean them and accuse them…the same tactics employed by the Catholic Church to rein them in.

Augustine weaved much of the pagan philosophy into the church and Calvin just promoted it and you and KenH just carry it on. So the root of your theology is paganism. Not what I would call a good foundation but you seem to like it.