The Biblical Doctrine of Election

[Van]

Wrong interpretation.

Yet another taint so post, teaching everyone Martin has no ability to provide an actual interpretation. Like the witness who did not see what happened, but knows what did not happen.

Hebrews 10:29 (Interpretive translation)
How much worse punishment, do you suppose, the one will be counted worthy, having trampled on the Son of God and deemed as contaminated the blood of the covenant, in which that person was set apart, outraging the Spirit of Grace.

 

[Van]

#33.

#35

 

[Van]

2 Peter 1:1. '.....To those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.'
Jere Peter tells us not only that our faith, far from being 'dirty-rag' is actually precious, and something we have obtained from the Lord Jesus Christ. It is truly the gift of God.

You have got to be kidding!!
God's word says all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. So what made our filthy rag faith "precious?" Being credited as righteousness by God.

 

[MrW]

Romans 4:5. 'But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as righteousness.'

And that is NOT filthy rags.

 

[Van]

Before the New Covenant in His blood was inaugurated, i.e. before Christ died as the Lamb of God, humanity was under the Old Covenant. All humanity was made sinners, and had no way to be reconciled to God. Some individuals obtained approval through faith, see Hebrews 11, but whether one shared in the blood line of Abraham or not, non-believers were all heading for destruction.

The New Covenant was inaugurated when Christ died, and all of humanity was set apart (sanctified) under its provisions, which provided a means of salvation for all humanity, those to be saved and those never to be saved. Thus Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, as Christ became the means of reconciliation for everyone, if they believe in the Son of God, Jesus Christ our risen Lord and Savior.

 

[Van]

Romans 4:5. 'But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as righteousness.'

And that is NOT filthy rags.

You are simply repeating yourself and not addressing the rebuttal to your view.

Here it is again:

I am sorry, but you are claiming, apparently, that faith needed to be counted as righteousness, but was not a filthy rag. Why would it need to be counted as righteousness if it was already righteousness?

Righteousness refers to our thoughts and actions deemed appropriate, rather than inappropriate. Thus our act of trusting fully in Christ is appropriate, thus an act of righteousness on our part, in accordance with the command of Christ - believe in the One God sent. However, because of our sinful state, prior to salvation, our faith needs to be counted, reckoned, considered to be righteousness, because on it own merits it is merely a filthy rag. Or do you suppose salvation depends on the persons who will, contrary to Romans 9:16?

 

[Van]

The biblical doctrine of election is not Doctor Wallace’s doctrine of election, the biblical doctrine is conditional, it occurs during our lifetime; God chose us individually out of this world, not before the foundation of the world, when He chose Christ. The only way I see to reconcile Ephesians 1:4, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, with 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and John 15:19 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 and James 2:5 is to understand the phrase “He chose us in Him” as meaning He chose Christ to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God (1 Peter 1:20) before the foundation of the world, and since you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, God’s choice of Christ chose us corporately as a target group of His Redemption plan but not individually. Thus Paul is speaking to those who have been redeemed during their lives, and is letting them know of the many blessings they have received, the first one being the blessing that was directed toward them when God chose Christ.

 

[MrW]

You are simply repeating yourself and not addressing the rebuttal to your view.

Here it is again:

I am sorry, but you are claiming, apparently, that faith needed to be counted as righteousness, but was not a filthy rag. Why would it need to be counted as righteousness if it was already righteousness?

Righteousness refers to our thoughts and actions deemed appropriate, rather than inappropriate. Thus our act of trusting fully in Christ is appropriate, thus an act of righteousness on our part, in accordance with the command of Christ - believe in the One God sent. However, because of our sinful state, prior to salvation, our faith needs to be counted, reckoned, considered to be righteousness, because on it own merits it is merely a filthy rag. Or do you suppose salvation depends on the persons who will, contrary to Romans 9:16?

There is NO BIBLE VERSE that calls faith filthy rags. There is NO NEED for me to address a rebuttal that is unsupported by Scripture. I hope we're not here to discuss opinions, but to discuss Scripture, and you have none. #33 explained what our "works of righteousness" are, and THEY are the filthy rags, NOT FAITH. Faith is accounted as righteousness, NOT BY MAN, BUT BY GOD.

 

[MrW]

You are simply repeating yourself and not addressing the rebuttal to your view.

Here it is again:

I am sorry, but you are claiming, apparently, that faith needed to be counted as righteousness, but was not a filthy rag. Why would it need to be counted as righteousness if it was already righteousness?

I never said "needed". I said God counted Abraham's faith for righteousness. I didn't say He needed to, nor did I say we need to. I said God did. And Paul said we are Abraham's seed when we place our faith in Christ.
Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

And you call faith "filthy rags"?!

 

[Van]

There is NO BIBLE VERSE that calls faith filthy rags. There is NO NEED for me to address a rebuttal that is unsupported by Scripture. I hope we're not here to discuss opinions, but to discuss Scripture, and you have none. #33 explained what our "works of righteousness" are, and THEY are the filthy rags, NOT FAITH. Faith is accounted as righteousness, NOT BY MAN, BUT BY GOD.

Sir, you can run but you can't hide.
Saying my view is opinion and your view is scripture will not cut the mustard.
Isaiah 64:6 says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags to God. So either you are claiming our faith is not an act of righteousness or you are claiming our faith is unrighteous but not a filthy rag. Either view denies Isaiah 64:6.

Romans 4:13 uses the phrase "righteousness of faith." So to claim faith is not works, plural is valid, but to claim faith is not a work is invalid, see John 6:29. I think the phrase from Romans 4:13 refers to our faith in the righteousness of God.

Either something is righteous in the eyes of God or it is not, there is no middle ground. Since God does not take needless action, His crediting our faith as righteousness proves absolutely our faith was not righteous before being credited as righteousness.

 

[37818]

Here sanctified means set apart, but does not mean set apart into Christ, but rather set apart under the New Covenant.

Utter nonsence. You want Scripture to mean only what you want it to mean.

". . .who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, . . ."

 

[Van]

I never said "needed".

And you call faith "filthy rags"?!

So now, in an attempt to avoid admitting your mistake, you have God doing something as vital as crediting our faith as a whim. Give me a break. Read Romans 4:23-25.

Did I call faith a work of righteousness? Yes. Does Isaiah 64:6 say righteousnesses are as filthy rags to God? Yes

 

[MrW]

So now, in an attempt to avoid admitting your mistake, you have God doing something as vital as crediting our faith as a whim. Give me a break. Read Romans 4:23-25.

Did I call faith a work of righteousness? Yes. Does Isaiah 64:6 say righteousnesses are as filthy rags to God? Yes

I have not made a mistake. I stand on God's Word alone. I never said anything about a whim.

NO. Isaiah 64:6 DOES NOT say righteousnesses are as filthy rags to God. NO!

 

[Van]

Utter nonsence. You want Scripture to mean only what you want it to mean.

". . .who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, . . ."

Folks, you can tell when someone has lost the argument, when they stop addressing the topic and start addressing my supposed behavior.

Hebrews 10:29 (Interpretive translation)
How much worse punishment, do you suppose, the one will be counted worthy, having trampled on the Son of God and deemed as contaminated the blood of the covenant, in which that person was set apart, outraging the Spirit of Grace.

Now "trampled" implies "under foot" but "under foot" is not actually found in the text. Thus the meaning I provided is the same as the meaning found in the quoted translation, but without the inferred addition.

 

[Van]

I have not made a mistake. I stand on God's Word alone. I never said anything about a whim.

NO. Isaiah 64:6 DOES NOT say righteousnesses are as filthy rags to God. NO!

Blah, blah, blah. Try saying something other than taint so.
You do not say this, and you do not say that, but you do say taint so. Got it.

Isa 64:6 (NKJV)
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

 

[37818]

Folks, you can tell when someone has lost the argument, when they stop addressing the topic and start addressing my supposed behavior.

Hebrews 10:29 (Interpretive translation)
How much worse punishment, do you suppose, the one will be counted worthy, having trampled on the Son of God and deemed as contaminated the blood of the covenant, in which that person was set apart, outraging the Spirit of Grace.

Now "trampled" implies "under foot" but "under foot" is not actually found in the text. Thus the meaning I provided is the same as the meaning found in the quoted translation, but without the inferred addition.

Hebrews 10:29, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Van]

all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; (KJV)
all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment (NASB)
all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight. (NET)
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; (NIV)
all our righteousness is like a polluted garment. (WEB)
all our deeds of justice like a menstrual cloth, (LEB)

In context Isaiah 64:6 is a sinner praying to God, admitting to his condition. Thus like a filthy rag implies like a filthy rag in God's sight.

 

[MrW]

NOW you said it right. OUR righteousnesses, which I have already shown are filthy rags.

Abraham believed God and it was COUNTED UNTO him as righteousness. That's what God called it. Abraham's faith wasn't something Abraham performed works of righteousness to work toward nor to attain. Abraham never claimed his own righteousness made him approved before God.

There seems to be something wrong here. I don't know what your problem is, but you're trying to alter Scripture for some reason, what I do not know, but I've grown tired of it. Quote Scripture correctly, and quote me correctly, or argue with someone else, twisting Scripture and their words like pretzels.

 

[Van]

Hebrews 10:29, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

What are you now saying? Not a word. Did you admit your post 51 was mistaken? Nope you just ignore my post and post something else. It is almost like no one wants to actually discuss the biblical doctrine of election. Go figure.

 

[Van]

NOW you said it right. OUR righteousnesses, which I have already shown are filthy rags.

Abraham believed God and it was COUNTED UNTO him as righteousness. That's what God called it. Abraham's faith wasn't something Abraham performed works of righteousness to work toward nor to attain. Abraham never claimed his own righteousness made him approved before God.

There seems to be something wrong here. I don't know what your problem is, but you're trying to alter Scripture for some reason, what I do not know, but I've grown tired of it. Quote Scripture correctly, and quote me correctly, or argue with someone else, twisting Scripture and their words like pretzels.

Good grief. Did you say whose righteousnesses are in view? Nope.
Did I say "works of righteousness?" Nope
Did I say Abraham claimed his own righteousness made him approved before God? Nope

It is almost like no one wants to actually discuss the biblical doctrine of election. Go figure.

 

[37818]

What are you now saying? Not a word. Did you admit your post 51 was mistaken? Nope you just ignore my post and post something else. It is almost like no one wants to actually discuss the biblical doctrine of election. Go figure.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chose us through sanctification by the Spirit, which I believe refers to the Holy Spirit putting us spiritually “in Christ” and through belief in the truth, . . .

Agreed. But according Acts 7:51 and Hebrews 10:29 individuals can resist the sanctification in the Spirit.