Calvinist dead

[MrW]

Calvinists love to talk about how people are DEAD and CANNOT BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ until God supernaturally makes them ALIVE.

The Bible says they are dead spiritually, but it says first they WOULD NOT believe until finally they COULD NOT believe. But it doesn't say they have total inability, doesn't say they cannot believe.

Now if Calvinists were honest about it, and truly believed they were DEAD, just like a dead body, which cannot see, cannot hear, cannot have its feelings hurt if someone insults it, cannot fight back if you strike it, cannot even know it if you set it on fire--if they TRULY believed all this, then WHY don't they believe what Scripture says about being DEAD TO SIN?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What about it? You who confess you were once DEAD TO GOD but are now ALIVE TO GOD and now you are able to believe on Christ, but could not when you were DEAD TO GOD, how about now that you are DEAD TO SIN?

You can no longer sin, right? You cannot see sin, hear it, can't have anything to do with it. You have TOTAL INABILITY to sin. Isn't that correct? Just as you were once dead to God, now you are DEAD TO SIN and ALIVE TO GOD.

Same logic.

 

[canadyjd]

Calvinists love to talk about how people are DEAD and CANNOT BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ until God supernaturally makes them (snip)
The Bible says they are dead spiritually, but it says first they WOULD NOT believe until finally they COULD NOT believe. But it doesn't say they have total inability, doesn't say they cannot believe.

Now if Calvinists were honest about it, and truly believed they were DEAD, just like a dead body, which cannot see, cannot hear, cannot have its feelings hurt if someone insults it, cannot fight back if you strike it, cannot even know it if you set it on fire--if they TRULY believed all this, then WHY don't they believe what Scripture says about being DEAD TO SIN?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What about it? You who confess you were once DEAD TO GOD but are now ALIVE TO GOD and now you are able to believe on Christ, but could not when you were DEAD TO GOD, how about now that you are DEAD TO SIN?

You can no longer sin, right? You cannot see sin, hear it, can't have anything to do with it. You have TOTAL INABILITY to sin. Isn't that correct? Just as you were once dead to God, now you are DEAD TO SIN and ALIVE TO GOD.

Same logic.

Your logic is flawed.

1 Corinthians 2:14 says the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither is he able, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 John 1:8 says that if we deny that we sin we have deceived ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So, just believe what scripture says and everything will become clear.

peace to you

 

[MrW]

I do. I'm not arguing Scripture. I am pointing out the "dead can't do anything" error of Calvinism.

If the "dead" CANNOT believe God, then the "dead to sin" CANNOT commit sin.

But they do.

Therefore, the "dead" can believe God for salvation, and indeed must, John 14:6; Acts 4;12; Acts 16:31.

And besides, we ALL SINNED prior to conversion, which satisfies 1 John 1:8 and the fact lost people have LIVING SPIRITS (else their body would fall over truly DEAD) answers 1 Corinthians 2:14. They don't understand the deep things of God, but they sure know they're lost sinners and need the Saviour.

 

[canadyjd]

I do. I'm not arguing Scripture. I am pointing out the "dead can't do anything" error of Calvinism.

If the "dead" CANNOT believe God, then the "dead to sin" CANNOT commit sin.

But they do.

Therefore, the "dead" can believe God for salvation, and indeed must, John 14:6; Acts 4;12; Acts 16:31.

And besides, we ALL SINNED prior to conversion, which satisfies 1 John 1:8 and the fact lost people have LIVING SPIRITS (else their body would fall over truly DEAD) answers 1 Corinthians 2:14. They don't understand the deep things of God, but they sure know they're lost sinners and need the Saviour.

What you are doing is making a false link between the Reformed position that “dead in trespasses and sin” which means the lost have no desire for the things of God unless God first moves upon them by Holy Spirit and….

…Since the reformed believe that, they must also believe they will never sin.

Your logic fails… a “straw man” argument I think is what it is called. I know of no one of the reformed position that doesn’t recognize they still sin.

The first position does not logically lead to the second.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

…..I'm not arguing Scripture…..….the fact lost people have LIVING SPIRITS (else their body would fall over truly DEAD) answers 1 Corinthians 2:14. They don't understand the deep things of God, but they sure know they're lost sinners and need the Saviour.

Please show me from 1 Corinthians 2:14 the natural man “sure know they’re lost sinners in need of a Savior”.

peace to you

 

[MrW]

Then you must think “dead” only means “dead” when you decide it does.

Dead to God—can’t believe on Christ.

Dead to sin—cannot commit sin.

Makes sense to me.

Oh, but wait! You DO still sin, even though you’re “dead”! Then the “dead” CAN believe on Christ, just as Scripture commands them to do!

 

[canadyjd]

Then you must think “dead” only means “dead” when you decide it does.

Dead to God—can’t believe on Christ.

Dead to sin—cannot commit sin.

Makes sense to me.

Oh, but wait! You DO still sin, even though you’re “dead”! Then the “dead” CAN believe on Christ, just as Scripture commands them to do!

I believe what scripture says.

Speaking of things that are dead….

You are beating a dead horse….

I’ll leave you to it.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Please show me from 1 Corinthians 2:14 the natural man “sure know they’re lost sinners in need of a Savior”.

...don't hold your breath...

 

[JonC]

Calvinists love to talk about how people are DEAD and CANNOT BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ until God supernaturally makes them ALIVE.

The Bible says they are dead spiritually, but it says first they WOULD NOT believe until finally they COULD NOT believe. But it doesn't say they have total inability, doesn't say they cannot believe.

Now if Calvinists were honest about it, and truly believed they were DEAD, just like a dead body, which cannot see, cannot hear, cannot have its feelings hurt if someone insults it, cannot fight back if you strike it, cannot even know it if you set it on fire--if they TRULY believed all this, then WHY don't they believe what Scripture says about being DEAD TO SIN?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What about it? You who confess you were once DEAD TO GOD but are now ALIVE TO GOD and now you are able to believe on Christ, but could not when you were DEAD TO GOD, how about now that you are DEAD TO SIN?

You can no longer sin, right? You cannot see sin, hear it, can't have anything to do with it. You have TOTAL INABILITY to sin. Isn't that correct? Just as you were once dead to God, now you are DEAD TO SIN and ALIVE TO GOD.

Same logic.

The whole "a dead man can't" thing is a stupid argument based on taking Scripture out of context. I agree with your observation, but it is not an argument made by Reformed theologians or those serious about Scripture (it's just a strange way some try to shut down arguments and avoid genuine discussion).

 

[MrW]

#6 was my final word on it. To recap, Calvinists are inconsistent about "dead". And the reason for it is that it's a made-up doctrine. No truth in it, because they don't understand "dead to God" doesn't mean "DEAD" like this world thinks of dead. It means separated from God, per the principle in the Book of James (if you recall, Adam had conversations with God after he was "dead", as did other lost people in Scripture.

 

[Marooncat79]

The unregenerate are spiritually dead

as Christs, we are called to die to self


Totally different issues

 

[MrW]

The unregenerate are spiritually dead

as Christs, we are called to die to self


Totally different issues

And as dead to sin as you once were "dead" to God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There were number of words that the Spirit might have used to describe people who do not know God: a bit poorly, not very well, pretty sick, in big trouble ..... You name it. But He did not use any of those words; He used the word "dead." Not physically dead, but spiritually dead; dead in trespasses and sins.

Now there is no doubt that spiritually dead people can be religious. You find lots of them in Britain in the C of E. and the Roman Catholics They are members of the church choir, they raise funds for the church roof, they may be church wardens or whatever, but they don't know the Lord. They are spiritually dead, and if the Vicar should preach for more than ten minutes (most unlikely), they've dozed off.
I have a friend who is one of these and has just a few weeks left to live with cancer. He seems to think that if there's a God, he's hedged his bets by turning up to church regularly for years, and if there isn't, it doesn't matter anyway. It breaks my heart, but 'Those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8). But whatever punishment awaits him is nothing compared with what awaits the equally dead succession of vicars who have cossetted him in his sins and failed to preach the truth to him (James 3:1).

In the same way that spiritually dead folk can be quite religious, so those who are 'dead to sin' can still have a relationship with it. But it is not the same relationship that unsaved people have. 'For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practise .......... For I delight in the law of God after the inward man ........' (Romans 7:19, 22). You all know these verses; I don't need to type them all out, do I?

If someone actually goes away from God altogether, that's a sign that he never was spiritually alive. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest that none of them were of us' (1 John 2:19). These people showed themselves in their true colours. They were spiritually dead, but they expressed an interest in the things of God and had us all fooled for a while. But eventually they drifted away and never came back. What is the difference between those people and those who remain? 'But you have an anointing from the Holy One .....' (1 John 2:20). There is 'a great gulf fixed' between those whom Christ has redeemed and those whom He has not, and nothing save a New Birth can bridge that gulf. Why a new birth? Because that is what those who are spritually dead need. 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh ........' It will always be flesh and cannot change itself (Jeremiah 13:23), but, '.......that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' God has given new life and those that are given it shall 'never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand' (John 10:28).

 

[AustinC]

I do. I'm not arguing Scripture. I am pointing out the "dead can't do anything" error of Calvinism.

If the "dead" CANNOT believe God, then the "dead to sin" CANNOT commit sin.

But they do.

Therefore, the "dead" can believe God for salvation, and indeed must, John 14:6; Acts 4;12; Acts 16:31.

And besides, we ALL SINNED prior to conversion, which satisfies 1 John 1:8 and the fact lost people have LIVING SPIRITS (else their body would fall over truly DEAD) answers 1 Corinthians 2:14. They don't understand the deep things of God, but they sure know they're lost sinners and need the Saviour.

The dead do something. They rebel against God. If God doesn't intervene and let's them continue in their ways, then the result is found in Romans 1.
*Romans 1:21-32*
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

W, if God had not chosen to save you, you would be a Romans 1 dead man.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Following on from my post #13, I'm going to look some more at Romans 8:5-8, which, it seems to me, is God's own commentary on John 3:6-7.
'For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.' Now we all know that there are degrees in which those in the flesh give themselves over to the influences of the flesh. Some people we know live relatively good and honest lives without ever giving a thought to God. And there are degrees to which those who are born of the Spirit give themselves over to the Spirit's gracious influences. Some of us quench the Spirit more or less than others; some of us grieve the Spirit more or less than others; and some of us walk in the Spirit more or less faithfully than others. I'm just quoting Scripture here.

But there is no crossover; there is no intermediate state; there is no third realm, no half-way house between flesh and Spirit. 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' They were born that way (Psalms 51:5; Psalms 58:3), and unless God in His mercy intervenes, they will stay that way. And that way is to be spiritually dead. 'For to be carnally [or 'fleshly'] minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal [or 'fleshly'] mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God nor indeed can be' (Romans 8:8-7). And for that reason those who are not born anew are under the wrath of God. 'So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8; cf. Psalms 7:11). They need a new birth, a birth of the Spirit, because to be in the flesh is to be spiritually dead.

 

[DaveXR650]

Calvinists love to talk about how people are DEAD and CANNOT BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ until God supernaturally makes them ALIVE.

The Bible says they are dead spiritually, but it says first they WOULD NOT believe until finally they COULD NOT believe. But it doesn't say they have total inability, doesn't say they cannot believe.

I know "Calvinist" teaching is vast and all over the place but I find it pretty consistently taught that the inability though true inability, is MORAL in nature. Therefore men are truly responsible for their actions. It's like the men whose eyes were full of adultery so that they could not cease from sin. They really could not but it was because of their own truly sinful attitude. I sense that when non-Calvinists object to this what they have in mind is that people are in more of a neutral position by nature and that there are some who would like to come to Christ but the Calvinists won't let them.

My question would be for purposes of discussion what are you trying to say by objecting to this teaching? I know some believe that man is truly able to evaluate the propositions of the Gospel and decide whether to believe or not. Others believe that help is needed but that there is sufficient power in the words of the Gospel itself and in the preaching of it for men to be held responsible at after hearing to make a choice. Still others believe that conviction is also necessary but that it is resistible, so there is not a question of "making a dead person alive". Some people also think that if men don't have a free, autonomous will then they can't truly and genuinely be held responsible for believing or refusing the gospel. What is your take on all this? Let me know if there is some scenario I have left out.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

…I sense that when non-Calvinists object to this what they have in mind is that people are in more of a neutral position by nature and that there are some who would like to come to Christ but the Calvinists won't let them. …

(Boldface added.) Now that’s funny.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

(Boldface added.) Now that’s funny.

In other words, just how messed up do you have to be to even contemplate that?

 

[AustinC]

I know "Calvinist" teaching is vast and all over the place but I find it pretty consistently taught that the inability though true inability, is MORAL in nature. Therefore men are truly responsible for their actions. It's like the men whose eyes were full of adultery so that they could not cease from sin. They really could not but it was because of their own truly sinful attitude. I sense that when non-Calvinists object to this what they have in mind is that people are in more of a neutral position by nature and that there are some who would like to come to Christ but the Calvinists won't let them.

My question would be for purposes of discussion what are you trying to say by objecting to this teaching? I know some believe that man is truly able to evaluate the propositions of the Gospel and decide whether to believe or not. Others believe that help is needed but that there is sufficient power in the words of the Gospel itself and in the preaching of it for men to be held responsible at after hearing to make a choice. Still others believe that conviction is also necessary but that it is resistible, so there is not a question of "making a dead person alive". Some people also think that if men don't have a free, autonomous will then they can't truly and genuinely be held responsible for believing or refusing the gospel. What is your take on all this? Let me know if there is some scenario I have left out.

Romans 1:21-32

 

[DaveXR650]

Romans 1 is a summary of human history in general. I don't think anyone on here would disagree that man is ruined and dead in the sense that we have all sinned and already blown it, we can't make amends for that, and when we try to reform we find ourselves still continuing to fail repeatedly, thus piling up even more guilt before God.

But the question is, is it possible for us to use our minds and upon hearing the gospel message, throw ourselves upon the mercy of God offered in that message. Or, do we need some degree of help in doing this. If so, then what does that help consist of.
Are we able and responsible to do this by looking at nature?
Are we able to do this if we are told the specific propositions of the Gospel?
Do we need some "help" from the Spirit in the form of conviction or is our natural conscience enough?
Do we need to be enlightened or quickened in our spirits first?
Do we need to actually be given a new nature or be born again BEFORE we can do this?

I have read the best of the non-Calvinist arguments and one concern seems to be a desire to vindicate God's nature by putting the power of choice and thus blame on man rather than God when men refuse to come. I find that a powerful argument. My problem with it is that there simply is no way to make the opportunities "fair" in our eyes and equal for all men. That goes against the reality we see. And, I have also found that Calvinist theologians also taught that refusing Christ was a great insult to God's grace and was indeed a choice.