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Textual Criticism?

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Silverhair

Well-Known Member

37818 I am not questioning that Pickering thinks he has restored the original autographs. I am saying that he has not way of knowing if his theory is true.
So your saying that Pickering's view on F35 has changed? How has it changed? What the article said about Pickering's research is still valid, truth is still truth.

Do you not consider what Pickering is doing is Textual Criticism?

You keep say NO to everything but I have not seen you provide any supporting articles by other scholars.

Thank you for keeping me in your prayers. But I am curious as to what your pray is for.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Thank you for keeping me in your prayers. But I am curious as to what your pray is for.
I love you brother. And it is ok should we disagree.

We do not have the mss access that the scholars who study them them have. We only have the information the scholars have made available to us. We either believe it or we do not.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
This is just an in family disagreement my brother. I actually bookmarked all 16 videos and will take a look at them. To be honest I do not think he will change my mind, but you never know.

He may have done excellent work in bring the F35 text together but when he says these are the "the precise original wording" that for me is a step to far.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
Did the information that Fee gave change between then and now? Truth is truth no mater how old the truth is.

It had nothing to do with F35, because it wasn't named back then.

Have you provided any supporting scholars of Pickering ideas, NO.

Why would I even consider it. I was trying to have a joint conversation about Family 35 for learning. I wanted to know why you didn't like it. Of course I wonder if you really know how he came to his conclusions. It has never been my job to convince you of F35 but that you know his real views.
F35 are good manuscripts but they are not the standard by which all others are to be judged as you seem to think.

There you go telling untruths again. When did I ever imply to you I thought "all others are to be judged"? And why do you think F35 manuscripts are good?
They are used as all manuscripts are, to try and find the best text of the autographs.

No there not. Most discard them. Fee wouldn't even consult or consider them. If any Textual critics consult them now its only because of Pickerings work!
This from a radio interview Pickering did in 2021 July

Just what I'd thought I'd do here, in case maybe some of our listeners aren't familiar with your work, is just read a brief introduction. This is something that I took from one of your books, The Sovereign Creator Has Spoken, the New Testament Translation with Commentary. Dr. Wilbur N. Pickering is a Christian missionary living in Brasilia, Brazil. He has a ThM and PhD in Linguistics. Of those actively involved in New Testament textual criticism, no one holds a more radical view in defense of the inerrancy and objective authority of the Sacred Text. This includes the position that the precise original wording has been preserved to our day, and that we can know what it is.

This was Pickerings's stated view of the manuscripts
The ruling paradigm at the time, and still, which is
the eclectic approach, is based on the false presumption that the original wording was lost and beyond objective recovery.

He then made this comment
I am not a textual critic. I am a student of the text. A critic is above the text. The text is above me.

But he had already made himself a textual critic by his statement. All scholars are students of the text of the manuscripts.


The Trinity Foundation - Transcript of TF Radio Episode 12- Dr. Wilbur N. Pickering

Pickering is the one that made these comment not me. You still have not provided a single scholar that supports his view. Note he did not say close to but rather the precise original wording.

Good. Read or listen to Pickering himself. That way if you disagree with him or are persuaded you will learn for yourself.
And
I have no interest in finding scholars that support him to share with you. I wanted to interact here to learn about Family 35 for myself. Not some critical text scholar from 50 years ago that has no appreciation for the Original Text.
 
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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
It had nothing to do with F35, because it wasn't named back then.



Why would I even consider it. I was trying to have a joint conversation about Family 35 for learning. I wanted to know why you didn't like it. Of course I wonder if you really know how he came to his conclusions. It has never been my job to convince you of F35 but that you know his real views.


There you go telling untruths again. When did I ever imply to you I thought "all others are to be judged"? And why do you think F35 manuscripts are good?


No there not. Most discard them. Fee wouldn't even consult or consider them. If any Textual critics consult them now its only because of Pickerings work!


Good. Read or listen to Pickering himself. That way if you disagree with him or are persuaded you will learn for yourself.
And
I have no interest in finding scholars that support him to share with you. I wanted to interact here to learn about Family 35 for myself. Not some critical text scholar from 50 years ago that has no appreciation for the Original Text.

So you just disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Funny that you want me to learn about F35 & Pickering and yet you do not feel it necessary to look at anything or support your view.

By your logic I guess we should not look at any scholar that wrote more than, what, 10, 15 years ago or perhaps we should shorten that to the last 5 years. Truth does not change with time as you seem to think.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
@Silverhair,
Those 17 videos I had posted by Dr. Pickering, he explains his defense of his findings for family 35. They are from his website. #00 - #16.

This thread will probably be closed soon. This post #191
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
So you just disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Funny that you want me to learn about F35 & Pickering and yet you do not feel it necessary to look at anything or support your view.

By your logic I guess we should not look at any scholar that wrote more than, what, 10, 15 years ago or perhaps we should shorten that to the last 5 years. Truth does not change with time as you seem to think.
A misunderstanding. Perhaps my fault.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Is the claim correct that many early translations and writings of the church fathers show they are in support of the Byzantine text?



Many Byzantine priority/majority text/textus receptus advocates rely on Dean John W. Burgon’s massive collation of patristic evidence a century ago. Dean Burgon found over 85,000 quotations in the early fathers that he said used the Byzantine text. But Burgon used uncritical and late texts (copied in the middle ages) and made a number of assumptions about the fathers when they quoted the NT (for example, Ignatius and Irenaeus often wrote, ‘As the Lord said,’ without giving the book name. Burgon found the wording in Mark that was Byzantine—though the wording in Matthew was Alexandrian—and he then assumed that the patristic writer was quoting from Mark). This issue has been raised by numerous scholars over the years. Gordon D. Fee, who is probably the best patristic text-critical scholar alive today, has said that there are NO ante-Nicene fathers who quoted the Byzantine text. As well, there is a recent article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society that deals just with Burgon’s approach. The author found that it was terribly faulty.

As for versional evidence, there used to be, about 70 years ago, the dispute as to whether the Syriac Peshitta was Byzantine or not. This was coupled with issues related to its date. Burgon’s followers dated the Peshitta in the second century and defended the view that it was Byzantine. Others argued that it was fifth century and was non-Byzantine. After all these years, we now can come to a better perception than either side had: the Syriac Peshitta is indeed fairly early, sometime before the year AD 451. It may even be as early as the third century. But its textual character is not Byzantine. The earliest Syriac translation that is Byzantine is the Harclean version of the sixth century.

Others claimed that the Gothic version of the late fourth century was the earliest Byzantine text. But recent work in the Gothic version suggests that it is not Byzantine. I don’t think the work done is yet adequate to make such a claim, so I am not willing to entirely abandon the view that the Gothic may be the earliest Byzantine version. Nevertheless, it is significant that the more research that is done on the versions and fathers the less they look Byzantine.

The evidence is rather overwhelming. There are a few folks who would claim that the Byzantine text existed early in the versions and fathers, but their methods are flawed and they represent no more than about 1-2% of all textual scholars. But even if they could prove that the Byzantine text was early, this would not be enough: they would also have to demonstrate that it was the predominant text-form in the early centuries. On the other side, there are the vast hordes of textual scholars of all theological stripes who see no real evidence that the Byzantine text was early. Usually the argument against these scholars in fact turns on their convictions. You will notice that Byzantine/KJV folks argue along two lines almost all the time: God has preserved his text and since the Byzantine is the most amply preserved, it must go back to the original; and the scholars who are behind modern translations are either deceived or are themselves heretical. Thus, their arguments are anything but rational; they are usually emotional and ad hominem. Frequently, Westcott and Hort are maligned as liberal and heretical, even as occult leaders (a charge that is blatantly false). Two things are conveniently overlooked when such ad hominem charges are made: first, the textus receptus (which was the Greek text used by the KJV translators) was produced by a Roman Catholic humanist who, by the standards of the KJV advocates, should be labeled as far more heretical than either Westcott or Hort; and second, the character of men like Hort or Westcott really has nothing to do with our evaluation of the ancient evidence, nor does Erasmus’ character. No textual scholar today completely follows Hort’s approach; at the same time, the great mass of evidence found in the last century largely confirms his general direction and has certainly done nothing to give comfort to KJV advocates.

Is the claim correct that many early translations and writings of the church fathers show they are in support of the Byzantine text? | Bible.org
 

37818

Well-Known Member
@Conan,
Thank you for talking serious interesting and defense of this topic. I find Dr. Pickering's find in what he has named Family 35 a truly remarkable find.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
A misunderstanding. Perhaps my fault.

At times we all may be speaking past each other. The F35 family has merit but no matter what text line one follows we can not get back to the autographs. Which in my mind is a good thing as if we did recover the original text I am sure that we would have some worship it as they did the bronze snake and the golden calf.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
. . . but when he says these are the "the precise original wording" that for me is a step to far.
Well, assuming Pickering is mistaken about f35. Greek New Testament text. That a reading identical in the TR, W-H, NU, MT and F35 Greek New Testament would be such a text.

Without agreeing with Pickering's view, can you state how and why he came to his view? What do you understand his evidence to be? Again, without agreeing with his conclusion.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
Is the claim correct that many early translations and writings of the church fathers show they are in support of the Byzantine text?



Many Byzantine priority/majority text/textus receptus advocates rely on Dean John W. Burgon’s massive collation of patristic evidence a century ago. Dean Burgon found over 85,000 quotations in the early fathers that he said used the Byzantine text. But Burgon used uncritical and late texts (copied in the middle ages) and made a number of assumptions about the fathers when they quoted the NT (for example, Ignatius and Irenaeus often wrote, ‘As the Lord said,’ without giving the book name. Burgon found the wording in Mark that was Byzantine—though the wording in Matthew was Alexandrian—and he then assumed that the patristic writer was quoting from Mark). This issue has been raised by numerous scholars over the years. Gordon D. Fee, who is probably the best patristic text-critical scholar alive today, has said that there are NO ante-Nicene fathers who quoted the Byzantine text. As well, there is a recent article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society that deals just with Burgon’s approach. The author found that it was terribly faulty.

As for versional evidence, there used to be, about 70 years ago, the dispute as to whether the Syriac Peshitta was Byzantine or not. This was coupled with issues related to its date. Burgon’s followers dated the Peshitta in the second century and defended the view that it was Byzantine. Others argued that it was fifth century and was non-Byzantine. After all these years, we now can come to a better perception than either side had: the Syriac Peshitta is indeed fairly early, sometime before the year AD 451. It may even be as early as the third century. But its textual character is not Byzantine. The earliest Syriac translation that is Byzantine is the Harclean version of the sixth century.

Others claimed that the Gothic version of the late fourth century was the earliest Byzantine text. But recent work in the Gothic version suggests that it is not Byzantine. I don’t think the work done is yet adequate to make such a claim, so I am not willing to entirely abandon the view that the Gothic may be the earliest Byzantine version. Nevertheless, it is significant that the more research that is done on the versions and fathers the less they look Byzantine.

The evidence is rather overwhelming. There are a few folks who would claim that the Byzantine text existed early in the versions and fathers, but their methods are flawed and they represent no more than about 1-2% of all textual scholars. But even if they could prove that the Byzantine text was early, this would not be enough: they would also have to demonstrate that it was the predominant text-form in the early centuries. On the other side, there are the vast hordes of textual scholars of all theological stripes who see no real evidence that the Byzantine text was early. Usually the argument against these scholars in fact turns on their convictions. You will notice that Byzantine/KJV folks argue along two lines almost all the time: God has preserved his text and since the Byzantine is the most amply preserved, it must go back to the original; and the scholars who are behind modern translations are either deceived or are themselves heretical. Thus, their arguments are anything but rational; they are usually emotional and ad hominem. Frequently, Westcott and Hort are maligned as liberal and heretical, even as occult leaders (a charge that is blatantly false). Two things are conveniently overlooked when such ad hominem charges are made: first, the textus receptus (which was the Greek text used by the KJV translators) was produced by a Roman Catholic humanist who, by the standards of the KJV advocates, should be labeled as far more heretical than either Westcott or Hort; and second, the character of men like Hort or Westcott really has nothing to do with our evaluation of the ancient evidence, nor does Erasmus’ character. No textual scholar today completely follows Hort’s approach; at the same time, the great mass of evidence found in the last century largely confirms his general direction and has certainly done nothing to give comfort to KJV advocates.

Is the claim correct that many early translations and writings of the church fathers show they are in support of the Byzantine text? | Bible.org
KJV advocates? This is not Textual Criticism, but written against KJVOnlyism. It is full of errors as well. Both the Syriac Peshitta and the Gothic are Byzantine Text in the Gospels. At least 8 of 10 readings will agree against the Alexandrian Text.

Also there are thousands of quotations by Burgon. This is reviewed by Alexandrian Text people. For them to just dismiss years of work without giving any real figures or real examples seems unscholarly. I call bullhockey. They are heavily biased. Just like their critical text decisions are unsupported by the actual evidence and their decisions short and shallow, so could this be. Considering the whole academia hasn't been able to take on Burgon's work, this is just a cheap shot wishing they could. Thousands of quotations. Anyone who has actually read Burgon, who defeated Westcott and Horts theory's easily, want proof.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
Dr. Pickering's find in what he has named Family 35 a truly remarkable find.
True indeed! Such carefully copied manuscripts is just what we would expect from Born Again Believer's. Contrast that with some other early manuscripts that were not carefully copied at all.
 
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