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Erasing Democrats

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by JonC, Aug 25, 2023.

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  1. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    That's a valid point. But at the same time, the "common" thought or idea does not always represent the reality.

    The United States tried the autonomous states concept with the Articles of Confederation, our original founding document, with John Hanson serving as the first of 14 Presidents under the Articles. The Articles turned out to be a disaster in practical terms, so the Founders. A new Constitutional Convention was formed, creating a federalist form of government the Constitution, with George Washington serving as the first President of the United States (under the Constitution). Our form of government was intentionally and explicitly created as federalist, with the federal government having priority over the states. That said, there was still a lot of "state's rights" sentiment around. That viewpoint became more vocal when the institution of slavery was not allowed to freely expand into new territories as the United States grew. That led to the idea that states could voluntarily leave the union at any point without the federal government having any say in the matter.

    It is, at least, a rejection of the Constitution that all of the states had previously ratified. If the Constitution is the basis of our government, it is a revolt against that government. It can be fairly and accurately described as traitorous. If you have a better word, I'd love to hear it.

    By intent, there was no Constitutional method to leave the Union. That was one of the major weaknesses of the Articles of Confederation.

    You are absolutely correct.
     
    #21 Baptist Believer, Aug 27, 2023
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. There was (is) no constitutional way to leave the federation. The issue that created the environment of the Civil War doesn't exist today. I don't identify, for example, as a citizen of South Carolina (although I am a resident if SC) but as a US citizen from SC. But prior to (and for decades afterwards) people identified more strongly with their state.

    That is how Robert E Lee, who opposed slavery for economic reasons, became a Confederate General (he couldn't justify, in his mind, fighting against his state).

    The danger of referring to those Confederate as traitors is two fold.

    For one, "traitor" in that context is a legal term and those men were pardoned (it does not negate the crime, but it does negate the legal status....i.e., they were traitors by the end of 1866 they were not).

    But the most important danger is that it glosses over changes in worldviews. Casually used, the word ignores distinctions that are important. We need to examine how each side viewed the government, its responsibilities, and it's powers. We need to look at the reasons men decided to betray the Union, and why men rightly viewed succession as illegal (and dangerous). Each side had legitimate points, and these do have a bearing on how we view the government today.
     
    #22 JonC, Aug 27, 2023
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  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    But does the Constitution prohibit a State or Commonwealth from leaving the Union?
    The COTUS only gives certain to the Federal govt - otherwise the 10th Amendment takes is the authority!

    And likewise - by what authority did the New World colonies leave England?
     
    #23 Salty, Aug 27, 2023
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Could you imagine a state leaving the Union.....and then the US banning travel and trade with that state? That would be interesting.
     
    #24 JonC, Aug 27, 2023
  5. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    That is exactly the US threaten Rhode Island with when they refuse to sign the COTUS!
     
    #25 Salty, Aug 27, 2023
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Perhaps that's the best move. Otherwise you'd have states largely benefitting from the Union without contributing.
     
    #26 JonC, Aug 27, 2023
  7. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    There was no human legal mechanism to leave. They rebelled against the authority of the King.
     
    #27 Baptist Believer, Aug 29, 2023
  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    thus the king is the legal authority
     
    #28 Salty, Aug 29, 2023
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