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Upright or not?
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright,.... The first man Adam...and not Adam only, but Eve also with him...also this image lay in righteousness and true holiness, which was original, natural, and created with them...it was perfect in its kind, and entirely agreeable to the holy, just, and good law of God; it had no defects in it, yet was but the righteousness of a creature, and loseable, as the event showed; and so very different from the righteousness of Christ, man is justified by.
but they have sought out many inventions; that is, Adam and Eve, not content with their present knowledge and happiness, they sought out new ways and means of being wiser and happier than God made them.
- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Ecclesiastes 7:29.
but they have sought out many inventions; that is, Adam and Eve, not content with their present knowledge and happiness, they sought out new ways and means of being wiser and happier than God made them.
- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Ecclesiastes 7:29.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Nobody answered? (O.K., KenH beat me to it!)
Adam.
Adam is the man (masculine singular).
"they" is third person masculine plural, in the Hebrew.
"they" are those of Adam's posterity, seen in;
20 "For there is not a just man upon earth,
that doeth good, and sinneth not".
...
Back to Adam;
Adam, then, is only one made entirely "upright" (besides Eve, who is included under, "man", by implication, according to me).
How were they "upright"?
Gill: "the disposition of their minds;
"they were "right and innocent before him,''
"or in the sight of God, as the Targum; which is best explained by their being made in the image and likeness of God, Genesis 1:26;
"and which, according to the apostle, lay in knowledge, righteousness, and holiness, Ephesians 4:24;"
23; "...be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24; "And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Our New Man is a partaker of the Divine Nature, which is righteous and Holy before God as we die daily to the flesh and put on the New Man and are renewed in the Spirit of our mind.
That will preach.
Adam.
Adam is the man (masculine singular).
"they" is third person masculine plural, in the Hebrew.
"they" are those of Adam's posterity, seen in;
20 "For there is not a just man upon earth,
that doeth good, and sinneth not".
...
Back to Adam;
Adam, then, is only one made entirely "upright" (besides Eve, who is included under, "man", by implication, according to me).
How were they "upright"?
Gill: "the disposition of their minds;
"they were "right and innocent before him,''
"or in the sight of God, as the Targum; which is best explained by their being made in the image and likeness of God, Genesis 1:26;
"and which, according to the apostle, lay in knowledge, righteousness, and holiness, Ephesians 4:24;"
23; "...be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24; "And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Our New Man is a partaker of the Divine Nature, which is righteous and Holy before God as we die daily to the flesh and put on the New Man and are renewed in the Spirit of our mind.
That will preach.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Not “men” … God made “ONE MAN” (הָאָדָם - āḏām - H120 - Hebrew Noun: Common Masculine Singular Absolute) upright, but “THEY” (וְהֵמָּה - hēm - H1992 - Hebrew Pronoun: Personal 3rd Person Masculine Plural) have sought out many devices.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 [YLT] See, this alone I have found, that God made man upright, and they -- they have sought out many devices.
It refers to mankind. I disagree, given the "they", that this is speaking of Adam. One reason is the connection between "men" and "they". Another is the Preacher did not observe creation.
Like on the Cross God was reconciling man (mankind) to Himself as the basis for men to be reconciled to God.
That does not work with the context of Ecclesiastes 7 and the observations of the Preacher.
You would do better to assume he was being poetic and referring to Adam with the men and women seeking out many devices being mankind in general.
I don't think it works perfectly, but it works much better in the context than does Adam.
I love Gill, but where does he get all that, "They sought out new ways"?
Eve was tricked, deceived. Adam was not. 1 Timothy 2:13-14
KenH
Well-Known Member
Eve believed what the serpent told her, and Adam followed right along: Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
They were not content with the food God gave them, not content with the beauty around them, not content with the knowledge that they had. They desired new food, new beauty, new knowledge.
Lol, scripture?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Genesis 3:6
Before that:
Genesis 3:1-5
Eve was tricked, deceived, just as Paul reveals. 1 Timothy 2:13-14
atpollard
Well-Known Member
The Preacher is not a reliable source of Truth (unless one believes that there are NO saved women, only saved men) within the context of Ecclesiastes 7.
Either he is or isn't. I'll leave that up to each to decide.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Huh? The book of Ecclesiastes is as much inspired as the rest of the Holy Scriptures.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Even if “God made mankind upright”, mankind was only upright in the persons of Adam and Eve and only prior to the fall. So ‘a man’ being made upright and many ‘they’ seeking out NOT UPRIGHT devices is still closer to truth than “All men are born upright”.
I am leaving that for others to decide.
They can read Ecclesiastes and decide if the Preacher is a reliable source of truth for themselves.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Some of inspiration is honest human emotion (common in psalms) that may not convey absolute truth.
- Does God “change his mind”? There is a verse that says He did.
- Does God literally “not hear” some prayers? How does that reconcile with OMNICIENCE?
23 All this I have proved by wisdom.
I said, "I will be wise";
But it [was] far from me.
24 As for that which is far off and exceedingly deep,
Who can find it out?
25 I applied my heart to know,
To search and seek out wisdom and the reason [of things],
To know the wickedness of folly,
Even of foolishness [and] madness.
26 And I find more bitter than death
The woman whose heart [is] snares and nets,
Whose hands [are] fetters.
He who pleases God shall escape from her,
But the sinner shall be trapped by her.
27 "Here is what I have found," says the Preacher,
"[Adding] one thing to the other to find out the reason,
28 Which my soul still seeks but I cannot find:
One man among a thousand I have found,
But a woman among all these I have not found.
29 Truly, this only I have found:
That God made man upright,
But they have sought out many schemes."
- So are there really ABSOLUTELY NO WOMEN of wisdom? Are all women really evil? Is that what God meant by that verse?
- Or is that just an honest statement of the heart of King Solomon that lived a life of womanizing that led him from the Lord?
KenH
Well-Known Member
KenH
Well-Known Member
but a woman among all those have I not found; that is, among all the harlots and adulterous women I ever knew or heard of, I never knew nor heard of one that was ever reclaimed from her evil ways, and reformed or became a chaste and virtuous woman: he may have respect to the thousand women that were either his wives and concubines, and, among all these, he found not one that deserved the above character; for this is not to be understood of women in general, for Solomon must have known that there have been good women in all ages, and perhaps more than men; and that there were many in his days, though those with whom his more intimate acquaintance was were not such, which was his unhappiness.
- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Ecclesiastes 7:28.
I disagree. I believe that those passages (no upright woman, God not hearing the prayers of some, and God changing His mind) all convey absolute truth.
That is what God's word does. It conveys absolute truth.
That said, your understanding of the truth that God's words convey may not be so perfect.
I think the best you should do is to place these inconsistencies on your understanding rather than on God's words.
The overall conclusion the Preacher makes is that men are made upright but they decide to sin (their sin is not a fault in God).