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Featured Is It Possible For Modern Translators To Fall Under the Curse Of Re 22:18,19

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by JD731, Nov 4, 2023.

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  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Re 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard <191> them. And when I had heard <191> and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth <191> say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


    Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth <191> the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away <851> from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away <851> his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Does anyone have any light on this saying?
     
    #1 JD731, Nov 4, 2023
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is often misused to speak of the Bible.

    But yes, I suppose adding to the prophecy could be a very bad thing.

    To the title, I don't think a translator could be guilty of adding to it. There is a difference between translating and adding to the words of prophecy. Otherwise we'd all have to read Revelation in Greek.
     
    #2 JonC, Nov 4, 2023
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  3. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you John C. Not every Bible that is accepted today is a translation. The best seller, the NIV, is a dynamic equivalence and we have many paraphrases that seems to be acceptable by Christians at large. What do you think about them?
     
    #3 JD731, Nov 4, 2023
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  4. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Do you really think reading in Greek would be beneficial when one considers there are different manuscripts from which English Bible translations are produced? What if the prophesies in Revelation differs enough to bring the curse on one or the other?
     
    #4 JD731, Nov 4, 2023
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think it depends on each translation (or "translation").

    Words are symbols to communicate.

    The NIV takes a different approach, for example, than the NASB. But both are translations (one "thought for thought" and another "word for word").

    In places the NIV is more accurate, and in others the NASB is more accurate (sometimes "word for word" does not actually communicate the idea being communicated).

    But then there are paraphrases like The Message. I would not consider The Message a translation, but I also would not count it as worthless (just not dependable).
     
    #5 JonC, Nov 4, 2023
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, I think it would be beneficial if one were fluent in Greek.

    There are different sources texts

    For example, the Textus Receptus (the one used by the KJV) departs from both the Nestle-Aland Text and the Byzantine Majority Text quite a bit in Revelation.

    When it does, the Textus Receptus follows Erasmus' Reuchlin manuscript (2814). At times Erasmus departed from this manuscript and followed the Vulgate , other Andreas texts, Church fathers and/or other authorities.

    So you could argue that when it comes to Revelation the KJV is very unreliable, and perhaps adds to the text.

    But reading Revelation in the KJV, the NASB, and the NIV I do not believe the translators to be adding to the text but instead trying to give us the best translation with what they have.

    And I believe that God preserves His Word (not the English words but what is supposed to be communicated by those words) in each of those translations.
     
    #6 JonC, Nov 4, 2023
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am commenting only on what I have underlined, JonC. Do you think the translators of the NIV and those who promote it have at least the possibility of falling under the curse if the method of producing their work is "thought for thought" in light of what God says about his thoughts in Isa 55:8? If you don't, I think you would at least admit it is a foolish thing for mortal men with limited minds to attempt. I am thinking in terms of the application of Isa 55:8 being only to the Revelation itself for the purpose of this thread.
     
    #7 JD731, Nov 4, 2023
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  8. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Reacting to the underlined statement Jonc, I went to BibleGateway and read Re 22:18-19 in all the works alphabetically from "A" through "L" and all but about 3 or 4 of them had similar language, if not the same words. This mean they understood that it was the words that were not to be compromised. I will quote the NIV for illustration;

    18 I am warning everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. Suppose someone adds anything to them. Then God will add to that person the plagues told about in this book. 19 Suppose someone takes away any words from this book of prophecy. Then God will take away from that person the blessings told about in this book. God will take away their share in the tree of life. God will also take away their place in the Holy City.

    It is not about thoughts there, it is about words. (There are actually several words in these two verses they took away that are in several other word translations).
     
    #8 JD731, Nov 4, 2023
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, I do not.
     
    #9 JonC, Nov 5, 2023
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    All translations from Greek to English adds words in the translation process. This is necessary to make sense in the English language.

    While it may be interesting to compare translation to translation, as far as accuracy goes this really doesn't make sense. We have to compare the translated text in the target language to the source text.
     
    #10 JonC, Nov 5, 2023
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  11. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    An embarrassing variant occurs within the textus receptus in this passage.

    Revelation 22:18–19 (AV 1873)
    For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Revelation 22:19 (Coverdale The Holy Scriptures, Faithfully and Truly Translated. 1535)
    God shal take awaye his parte out of the boke of life and out of the holy citie, and frō tho thinges which are wrytten in this boke.

    Revelation 22:19 (Tyndale 1536)
    And yf any man shall mynissbe of the wordes of the boke of this prophesy/God shall take awaye his parte oute of the boke of lyfe...​


    The variant can be traced to the Vulgate, the Latin text
    "The corruption of “tree” into “book” had occurred earlier in the transmission of the Latin text when a scribe accidentally miscopied the correct word ligno (“tree”) as libro (“book”)". [Metzger, p. 690]


    Most modern versions correct this err.

    Revelation 22:18–19 (NASB 2020)
    I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
    and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

    Revelation 22:19 (NA28)
    καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς...

    Revelation 22:19 (Robinson Byzantine Majority Text 2005)
    καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφέλοι ὁ θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς...​

    Rob
     
    #11 Deacon, Nov 5, 2023
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  12. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am asking a different question than the one you answered.
     
    #12 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  13. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I have quoted the NIV saying that the curse is for those who adds to or takes from the words of the prophesy of the Revelation. Indeed, almost all of the translations, A through L in Bible Gateway says this about the words (I have read them all). In view of your position on translations, paraphrases, dynamic equivalences, etc. then, do you think there is any one who has ever, or will ever, fall under this curse? If you believe there are, who do you think they might be? Or do you think the warning has no practical value and application?
     
    #13 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  14. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Do you think there is a consensus of thought among the relatively few people who have ability to read the original languages and do you think those men would be more like prophets (men who speak to the people for God) in their translations? Additionally, it is true that these men do not agree on the "original" texts, so that presents a problem.
     
    #14 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, I do believe there are some who can fall under this condemnation. These will be people who actually add to those prophecies. I think these will be people who insist on a specific eschatology in addition to what is revealed by God. To them it may be interpretation, but in reality it is adding. That said, I am not sure where the line would be drawn between interpretive speculation and actually adding to Scripture. I suppose it could be in the authority given the interpretation.

    Use this thread as an example.

    Could teaching that all English version translators of Revelation are under this curse because they have to add words to make the Greek coherent in English actually be adding?

    Could teaching one translation, whether the NIV or KJV, falls under this curse actually be adding, therefore those people (although well meaning) fall under the curse?

    I tend to think that the passage is not speaking of translations which by necessity add words in the translation process but intentionally adding words that change the context or content of the message. But I would, out of caution, not hold that belief as Scripture itself.
     
    #15 JonC, Nov 5, 2023
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not think that there is a consensus. There are good reasons to accept one text over another....but there are also good reasons to accept the other text over the one.

    I do not believe the differences in manuscripts present a significant problem. The reason is that the message is not changed when we look at Scripture as a whole.
     
    #16 JonC, Nov 5, 2023
  17. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, well…

    How does one forfeit their opportunity to eternal life?

    A - One who does not believe, trust, or follow the word of God.

    The one who would maliciously change God’s word in order to manipulate others would not have faith in the word of God and would not have life eternal.


    On the other hand, as seen within Scripture itself, there are many ways to communicate God’s word.
    The MESSAGE translation, while not being a word-for-word translation, communicates God’s message in a manner quite like a sermon might communicate God’s words (Eugene Peterson was after all, a preacher and minister of God).

    Rob
     
    #17 Deacon, Nov 5, 2023
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  18. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The KJV has some renderings that could be considered dynamic equivalents or paraphrases. The KJV is not a literal, word-for-word, every word English translation. According to the makers of the KJV themselves in their marginal notes, they omitted giving any English word/rendering for many original-language words of Scripture. According to the makers of the KJV themselves, they added many words for which they had no original-language words of Scripture in their underlying text as they inconsistently put some of the added words in a different type in the 1611 edition [later editions had italics for added words].

    Are you suggesting that the KJV violates Revelation 22:18-19?
     
    #18 Logos1560, Nov 5, 2023
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  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well I can give you my light on the saying, now weather you believe it or not is up to you?... I have always believed in the surety of Salvation... For Satan to touch any of Gods Chosen Children, that he gave to his Son to save... He would have to overthrow the Godhead!... The following is from the pen of Elder Vernon Johnson... Brother Glen:)

    I wondered how many of God's people have had their soul plagued because they have added to the word of God. These plagues can come in many ways including our relationships, the trials and troubles we bring upon ourselves, the leanness of our soul, the loneliness that plagues many, the continual turmoil within the lives of those so plagued, the lack of contentment that so many experience, the pitfalls that many fall into in their lives, etc.

    Similarly, by taking away from the words of the prophecy of this book, the warning is that we would have our part removed from the book of life, from the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book. God's children are not in danger of losing their eternal life. They are, however, in danger of losing the joy of their salvation, and the blessings of service to God, and the felt presence and fellowship of God and his people in the worship and service of God. They are in danger of losing their place in the Lord's church kingdom here in time.
     
    #19 tyndale1946, Nov 5, 2023
  20. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    You mention the curse is for adding to but it is also for taking away from the words of the prophecy. So JonC, why give the warning of the curse if there is little to no potential for God to enact it? The words in the testimony of Jesus Christ seems to be very important to him. Re 1:2-3

    Could it be they are so important to receive them without any addition or subtraction or alteration of the words is because of the apocalyptic style he uses to reveal the events? Much symbolism is used in the book and the meaning of the symbols of most of it has been established in previous books in the new and old testaments. Where it is not the symbols are defined in the book. For instance "stars" equal angels, candlesticks equals churches, mountains equal kingdoms, horns equals kings, the sea equals the mass of humanity, the Red Dragon equals Satan, and so on and so forth.

    Since the Revelation is a prophecy that has not been fulfilled yet and it is all in the future even now, I can see confusion will be the result if any of the symbolic words were left out, changed, inserted where they do not belong, since our understanding of this book is dependent on our knowledge of the symbols, can't you?

    Would you agree with me that translators who do not understand these symbols and are not careful with them, are those who are most likely to fall under this curse? This seems especially so since God has not instructed the church to translate his scriptures.
     
    #20 JD731, Nov 5, 2023
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