Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture

[JD731]

The reason is because the church and it's associated doctrines are "mysteries" and must be revealed to prepared hearts by the indwelling Spirit, who alone can teach us his words. Generally speaking, teachers who cannot understand and discern the mystery of the church of Jesus Christ are more than likely to be off center on all the major doctrines of the faith for that simple reason, lack of spiritual discernment. That is what I notice on these boards as I interact with denominational faith groups.

This age we live in is clearly laid out in the parables of Jesus during the last weeks of his earthly ministry and in his mysteries of the kingdom of heaven parables, numbering 12 total in the gospels, identified as the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" (12 being the number of God's kingdom in the scriptures) and Paul the apostle was chosen to reveal the mysteries of the faith to the believers in this age. If you are one of those people who does not get it, and even argue against it, you should do an examination of your heart.

Seven of these parables are in Matthew 13 where Jesus lays out this whole age in a format of sowing and reaping, from sowing the seed to the reaping the harvest and dealing with the tares that have interfered with the growth of the wheat.

One of the mysteries of this age is called the "mystery of iniquity." Paul said it was already at work when he wrote his books.

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
For those who cannot understand the KJV, the word "let" means hinder, and that which hinders full iniquity is the Spirit, (ye are the light of the world, Jesus said) who resides in believers, the body of Christ, the church of Jesus Christ.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The revelation of the church of Jesus Christ is addressed to the churches and the mystery of God is complete when he returns with the church to reign over lords and kings as the Lord of lords and King of kings, and finally full knowledge is achieved by the church.

It is not okay to preach bad doctrines concerning end time events to promote the established doctrines of some favored denomination.

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us (the apostles and prophets), as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, (the completion of the mytery of God Re 10:7), and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I would like to talk about this awhile and convince the doubters of the truth of the word of God concerning the gathering of his main harvest, the church, often referred to as the rapture.......

 

[Silverhair]

I have seen this subject, discussed, on a number of threads and it never ends well.

You use the words "convince the doubters" but to those of a different view you are the doubter.

It is not a matter of when but the fact that He will return that we should be concerned with. The timing of His return is all speculation at best. Now you may and most likely would disagree with that last comment but that is what I see in scripture so I do not get involved with this type of discussion.

 

[JD731]

I have seen this subject, discussed, on a number of threads and it never ends well.

You use the words "convince the doubters" but to those of a different view you are the doubter.

It is not a matter of when but the fact that He will return that we should be concerned with. The timing of His return is all speculation at best. Now you may and most likely would disagree with that last comment but that is what I see in scripture so I do not get involved with this type of discussion.

There is much disagreement on when and how a man is saved from his sin, as well as many other church age subjects between faith groups, yet it does not hinder discussion. The church is charged to preach the truth, not to shrink from it because there is disagreement. How does that help anyone and glorify the word of the Lord?

Do what you must.

 

[37818]

Specific variants must be dealt with individually case by case. Otherwise it is so much nonsense.

Whether an interpretation, translation, or known textual variants.

 

[taisto]

@JD731, Please identify the "modern denominations" you have in mind in your OP.

Your OP presents ideas, but what traditional denomination holds your view of the parables and end times?

I wonder if your view is a very "modern" view and cannot be found in historic writings.

Please provide documentation from the Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, the Coptic, or other traditions that are at least 500 years old who teach what you are stating.

Perhaps you are the one who holds a modern view.

 

[tyndale1946]

@JD731, Please identify the "modern denominations" you have in mind in your OP.

Your OP presents ideas, but what traditional denomination holds your view of the parables and end times?

I wonder if your view is a very "modern" view and cannot be found in historic writings.

Please provide documentation from the Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, the Coptic, or other traditions that are at least 500 years old who teach what you are stating.

Perhaps you are the one who holds a modern view.

I can do better than that, I can show you where it came from and it's not Baptist... No way!... Brethren hold on to your seats!... This going to be quite a ride!
When I was growing up in my Primitive Baptist Church I NEVER heard a sermon on the rapture... Resurrection I could not get enough of but rapture?... The PB's I associate with and know still do not believe in a rapture... Then I came here where where all phases of rapture are mentioned... So instead of saying my church was right and these brethren are wrong I looked up where it came from and you can too... I'm still wondering why Baptist believe or any denomination believes in a rapture, a RCC doctrine?... That started in the Reformation as a vendetta against the reformers who referred to the pope as the Ant-Christ... The 1,000 year reign of Christ is symbolic and by the sly pen of a Jesuit Priest, Manuel Lacunza and a fellow Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera, you all brought into this lie, hook line and sinker and believe its literal... Now you believe in your rapture and your 1,000 year reign and all that it entails all you want but this Primitive Baptist wants no part of it... And maybe by posting this others will drop this belief like a hot potato... Are you Baptist Catholic?... I'm waiting for a resurrection only, what are you waiting for?... Brother Glen

Manuel Lacunza - Wikipedia

Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[37818]

The PB's I associate with and know still do not believe in a rapture...

Interesting.

1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up . . . "
The Latin Vulgate, ". . . rapiemur . . . ." From where we get the word "rapture."

 

[tyndale1946]

Interesting.

1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up . . . "
The Latin Vulgate, ". . . rapiemur . . . ." From where we get the word "rapture."

Latin?... That should be a red flag, right there... I read the KJV without the Apocrypha, which uses Greek and Latin... Brother Glen

 

[37818]

Latin?... That should be a red flag, right there... I read the KJV without the Apocrypha, which uses Greek and Latin... Brother Glen

The rapture is taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . shall be caught up . . . ." And 1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . we shall be changed. . . ." Along with 1 John 3:2, ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ."

Primitive Baptists as Baptists did not exist until the early 1800's.

 

[JD731]

@JD731, Please identify the "modern denominations" you have in mind in your OP.

Your OP presents ideas, but what traditional denomination holds your view of the parables and end times?

I wonder if your view is a very "modern" view and cannot be found in historic writings.

Please provide documentation from the Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, the Coptic, or other traditions that are at least 500 years old who teach what you are stating.

Perhaps you are the one who holds a modern view.

A modern view is not a problem if it is a biblical view. The view I hold can be supported by the words of the scriptures in their context and by rightly dividing. It is reasonable and logical. You are a man who does not believe what you read and I am talking about you and whatever group you associate with and represent.

 

[JD731]

I can do better than that, I can show you where it came from and it's not Baptist... No way!... Brethren hold on to your seats!... This going to be quite a ride!
When I was growing up in my Primitive Baptist Church I NEVER heard a sermon on the rapture... Resurrection I could not get enough of but rapture?... The PB's I associate with and know still do not believe in a rapture... Then I came here where where all phases of rapture are mentioned... So instead of saying my church was right and these brethren are wrong I looked up where it came from and you can too... I'm still wondering why Baptist believe or any denomination believes in a rapture, a RCC doctrine?... That started in the Reformation as a vendetta against the reformers who referred to the pope as the Ant-Christ... The 1,000 year reign of Christ is symbolic and by the sly pen of a Jesuit Priest, Manuel Lacunza and a fellow Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera, you all brought into this lie, hook line and sinker and believe its literal... Now you believe in your rapture and your 1,000 year reign and all that it entails all you want but this Primitive Baptist wants no part of it... And maybe by posting this others will drop this belief like a hot potato... Are you Baptist Catholic?... I'm waiting for a resurrection only, what are you waiting for?... Brother Glen

Manuel Lacunza - Wikipedia

Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Reformed groups are not biblical. By your own identification you believe the unbiblical doctrines of the Roman Catholics was at one time correct. They never held to the truth. Reformed fathers made up doctrines and have corrupted all of Christendom until now we are living in the perilous times that identify the last days of the church. Reformed doctrines proponents carry more blame for the slide than anyone else, IMO.

 

[taisto]

A modern view is not a problem if it is a biblical view. The view I hold can be supported by the words of the scriptures in their context and by rightly dividing. It is reasonable and logical. You are a man who does not believe what you read and I am talking about you and whatever group you associate with and represent.

LOL, I am sorry to hear you think that those who believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone don't have a biblical view.

Moreso, you seem to despise all the "non-modern" denominations, which is ironic considering the title of this topic thread.

By your reasoning the vast majority of Christian faith is "non-biblical" while only your futurism, which is a modern theory, would be "biblical."

I hope you understand that you have lost your credibility here.

 

[Stray Cat]

There is an old saying: If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true.
If this OP topic of rapture/sensationalism "anytime now" return etc. is true now, then it must have
been true in the first century as well. I think this may have done damage to the creditability of
Christianity. Consider all the date-setting in the past hundred years or so. H. Lindsey and all his best sellers
Late Great Planet Earth etc., Scofield Bible among other end-times material and writers.
Does not the Bible say that no man knows the day or the hour and that it not for us to know??

 

[tyndale1946]

There is an old saying: If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true.
If this OP topic of rapture/sensationalism "anytime now" return etc. is true now, then it must have
been true in the first century as well. I think this may have done damage to the creditability of
Christianity. Consider all the date-setting in the past hundred years or so. H. Lindsey and all his best sellers
Late Great Planet Earth etc., Scofield Bible among other end-times material and writers.
Does not the Bible say that no man knows the day or the hour and that it not for us to know??

The Lord WILL come when the last elect is born and that is God's business and none of ours and there is no reason for him to come before... It could be anytime!... Brother Glen

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can do better than that, I can show you where it came from and it's not Baptist... No way!... Brethren hold on to your seats!... This going to be quite a ride!
When I was growing up in my Primitive Baptist Church I NEVER heard a sermon on the rapture... Resurrection I could not get enough of but rapture?... The PB's I associate with and know still do not believe in a rapture... Then I came here where where all phases of rapture are mentioned... So instead of saying my church was right and these brethren are wrong I looked up where it came from and you can too... I'm still wondering why Baptist believe or any denomination believes in a rapture, a RCC doctrine?... That started in the Reformation as a vendetta against the reformers who referred to the pope as the Ant-Christ... The 1,000 year reign of Christ is symbolic and by the sly pen of a Jesuit Priest, Manuel Lacunza and a fellow Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera, you all brought into this lie, hook line and sinker and believe its literal... Now you believe in your rapture and your 1,000 year reign and all that it entails all you want but this Primitive Baptist wants no part of it... And maybe by posting this others will drop this belief like a hot potato... Are you Baptist Catholic?... I'm waiting for a resurrection only, what are you waiting for?... Brother Glen

Manuel Lacunza - Wikipedia

Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Damn Jesuits, sneaky
This present pope is a Jesuit cloaked as a Franciscan… sneaky bugger.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There is an old saying: If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true.
If this OP topic of rapture/sensationalism "anytime now" return etc. is true now, then it must have
been true in the first century as well. I think this may have done damage to the creditability of
Christianity. Consider all the date-setting in the past hundred years or so. H. Lindsey and all his best sellers
Late Great Planet Earth etc., Scofield Bible among other end-times material and writers.
Does not the Bible say that no man knows the day or the hour and that it not for us to know??

Yes it does!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The rapture is taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . shall be caught up . . . ." And 1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . we shall be changed. . . ." Along with 1 John 3:2, ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ."

Primitive Baptists as Baptists did not exist until the early 1800's.

Where you getting your PB history from? We’re we all Anabaptists then?

 

[JD731]

There is an old saying: If it's true, it's not new. If it's new, it's not true.
If this OP topic of rapture/sensationalism "anytime now" return etc. is true now, then it must have
been true in the first century as well. I think this may have done damage to the creditability of
Christianity. Consider all the date-setting in the past hundred years or so. H. Lindsey and all his best sellers
Late Great Planet Earth etc., Scofield Bible among other end-times material and writers.
Does not the Bible say that no man knows the day or the hour and that it not for us to know??

What does any of that have to do with the subject? The question you need to ask is, "what saith the scriptures." Hang what Hal Lindsay and schofield says. What they say will not be an excuse for you at the judgement.

 

[JD731]

The Lord WILL come when the last elect is born and that is God's business and none of ours and there is no reason for him to come before... It could be anytime!... Brother Glen

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Before it said that, it said this:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is no excuse for this ignorance. Only those who are in Jesus, that is in his body, the church, are asleep. Those who die without Christ are simply dead. At least this is true in the KJV. The hope is a resurrection and glorification and being taken to the Father's house like has been promised.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

That is hope. What you guys pervert the hope is the great tribulation.

1 Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ:

1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Paul was addressing the church and assuring us of his coming to deliver us from the wrath to come. He was not addressing you if you are an unbeliever of his promises. If you are faithful to the teaching of some man or organization that claims they are speaking for God then these promises are not for you.

The day of the Lord is the wrath to come, and it has not come yet but will soon.


Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[percho]

I can do better than that, I can show you where it came from and it's not Baptist... No way!... Brethren hold on to your seats!... This going to be quite a ride!
When I was growing up in my Primitive Baptist Church I NEVER heard a sermon on the rapture... Resurrection I could not get enough of but rapture?... The PB's I associate with and know still do not believe in a rapture... Then I came here where where all phases of rapture are mentioned... So instead of saying my church was right and these brethren are wrong I looked up where it came from and you can too... I'm still wondering why Baptist believe or any denomination believes in a rapture, a RCC doctrine?... That started in the Reformation as a vendetta against the reformers who referred to the pope as the Ant-Christ... The 1,000 year reign of Christ is symbolic and by the sly pen of a Jesuit Priest, Manuel Lacunza and a fellow Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera, you all brought into this lie, hook line and sinker and believe its literal... Now you believe in your rapture and your 1,000 year reign and all that it entails all you want but this Primitive Baptist wants no part of it... And maybe by posting this others will drop this belief like a hot potato... Are you Baptist Catholic?... I'm waiting for a resurrection only, what are you waiting for?... Brother Glen

Manuel Lacunza - Wikipedia

Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Brother Glen would like to know if this makes sense?

OT. There were people who died of the faith of Abraham and people who were not of the faith of Abraham
NT to now. There were people who died of the faith of Christ and people alive who are of the faith of Christ also there were people who died not of the faith of Christ and there are people who are alive of the faith of Christ.

Paul preached the Kingdom of God wherever he went. Acts 20:25 NKJV “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more.

1 Cor 15:50,51,53 NKJV Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. <<<< In order to inherit the Kingdom of God

1 Thes 4:14 NKJV For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[fn]

15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The question of the Thessalonians was how are our loved ones who died of the faith of Christ going to be in the Kingdom of God.

The snatching away, of those of faith, to rule with him in his Kingdom is relative to; For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. ------ Relative to the kingdom of God and his Christ.