Featured What is the Revelation and How Should Christians Read it

Receiving salvation is not the first resurrection.

The resurrection, any resurrection, is the body being made alive again, after it was stone-cold dead, and most of the time, buried or cremated.

 

So, Ephesians 2:4-7 is a body being made alive again?

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

In 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 this, by your account, must be a physical new creation.

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

 

Notice that Colossians 1:13 is past tense.
(Colossians 1:13-14)
For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son, who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins.
(Ephesians 2:4-6)
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.

Notice that the saints in glory now reign and serve in heaven. There is no concern for them regarding being cast into the Lake of Fire. They have already been declared righteous and justified by faith.

(Revelation 20:4-6)
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

According to these passages, I understand that the reign is the present "1000 years" reign in which all who die in Christ are presently participating.

There is, in this view, only one return of Christ, as the whole Bible suggests, not two returns of Christ, as premillennarians suggest.

 

The symbolism is about a Lamb slain on an alter.

You claim the Lamb was martyred.

Jesus on the Cross to you was just a martyr, and not the savior of the world.

The symbolism in the 5th Seal is not martyrdom. It is about being slain on the alter in Christ.

You turn the animal sacrifices in the OT into animal martyrs, as types leading up to the martyrdom of Christ.

Symbolism has a purpose and that translation dismisses John's purpose, and changes God's Word to man's opinion.

Being slain is symbolic of removing Adam's dead flesh and putting on God's grace. Being a martyr is something totally different. A martyr is one who stays true to his belief even in the face of death.

Those beheaded are not martyrs. Their only salvation is to remove themselves from Adam's dead flesh, or be marked as headed to the LOF.

Obviously you refuse to answer why you think this symbolism means martyrdom instead of the Lamb slain on the alter.

Not every one is martyred but they all have taken part in what the Lamb provided. The only thing that happens in the 5th Seal is the entire church is glorified. That is the action of putting on the robe of white. The church has put on the spirit, they are now completely restored sons of God. The 5th Seal is not about tribulation, persecution, nor vengeance. It is about the putting on of the white robes. The Lamb slain, and the alter was there before creation. We are covered by the blood. We have been slain out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The church then waits in Paradise until the final harvest is completed by Jesus and the angels on the earth.

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. That is when the final harvest will begin. How long the final harvest takes, no one knows, nor can know, until it is over.

 

Do the saints endure to the end?
There is a perseverance of the saints. Hebrews specifically calls us to endurance, even as death kills.

Tim, I understand dispensationalism/futurism. I understand that it is very hard for you to view Revelation outside of what you have been taught. It will require a paradigm shift in understanding the entire book. That shift is a struggle.

Whether you can ever see the 7 fold cyclical method of writing John is following will only be seen with time. I would simply encourage you to look at the other views.
Here at the BB each of the four views are held by someone. I believe @asterisktom is a preterist. @Piper is a post-millennial historicist. @Alan Gross and I are amillennialists. You are a dispensational futurist. Each person has reasons for their view. Some have been raised with a certain view. Others have looked at the different views and concluded one view is better than the others. For me, amillennialism does the best job in connecting Revelation to the whole of scripture.

I expect all of us to be received into the Kingdom by our King. We will find out then whether we got anything right in our reading of Revelation.

 

I was taught the 7 fold cycles. My paradigm shift is based on Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. Revelation is not 7 different camera views. Revelation is the final harvest. The 5th and 6th Seal covers Paul's rapture and Second Coming event. No one teaches the correct Second Coming as given by John.

Amil is like jumping out of the frying pan of dispensational thought and into the fire. Preterist is just a burnt out shell after the fire. None of man's theology and eschatology is perfect without contradicting other Scripture.

Enduring until the end is not a matter of loosing one's salvation at the very end. It is being obedient to God. And the end is not a point in time. Those in the first century did not have to endure until 2030. The day of redemption is not the Second Coming. The first resurrection happens to all in Christ when we leave Adam's flesh in physical death, and the soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. That is also the day of redemption that all endure until in perseverance. I am sure if that day happens prior to the Second Coming, you will enjoy your new physical body, and not demand of God you must walk around as a naked soul without that physical body, even though you denied that point while alive on earth.

Seated with Christ in heavenly places was a reality when Paul wrote about it. It was a reality when Jesus represented what the first resurrection was. We already had examples, but the term was not used until the book of Revelation. The second birth is spiritual and the point one is sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are then sons of God with all the responsibility that goes with being a son in God's family. We are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is the reality of being in Christ. Paul pointed out we have to crucify (slay the flesh) daily. That is the spiritual application of a soul under the alter. Having slain Adam's flesh is the physical point of dying and the soul entering Paradise. Vengeance simply means against sin and death. It does not have to be against other humans who are just as lost as we were at some point.

Jesus forgave all those involved in His physical death, before He physically died. He needed no vengeance. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against spiritual darkness. We endure and persevere through the power of the Holy Spirit. We remain obedient to God and let the Holy Spirit have full control.

 

Tim, you are forcing a presupposition upon the text when you state:
"The 5th and 6th Seal covers Paul's rapture and Second Coming event. No one teaches the correct Second Coming as given by John."

When you declare an exclusive view that only you have figured out, that functions as a huge red flag to all of us.

 

How many second comings are there?

Revelation is John's view of the OD.

Paul has a version of the OD, even though he was not there.

If that is a presupposition, then calling the Gospels synoptic is some human's presupposition they insert into God's Word

 

There is only one return of Christ.

If one holds to a return of Christ to rule for a strict 1000 years and then Christ steps aside to let Satan revolt, followed by another return, then you have more than one return of Christ.

 

After the thousand years, Christ does not go away.
". . . And fire came down out of heaven from God and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the Lake of Fire and brimstone, where the Beast and the False prophet also are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . ."


[This echos Genesis 19:24 and Jude 1:7.]

 

Now you are placing your presupposition into Revelation 20 that Jesus steps aside.

Satan is allowed to convince people. Nothing is written that claims Satan takes over the world. Jesus does not leave at the end of the Millennium. Jesus hands creation back to God, and creation will no longer exist outside of God.

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This all takes place after the Second Coming. The Second Coming places Jesus on the earth, not me. You claim Jesus leaves at some point after the Second Coming. Prove it with Scripture instead of accusing me of being abnormal.

One more thing:

Death is the last enemy. Those who rebel are consumed by fire and die. They are the last to die. Death is defeated at that point. No one else will have to die.

 

Where did I say "Satan takes over the world?" Honestly, are you reading what I have written or are you simply arguing because you won't drop your view, no matter how inconsistent it is?

There is only one return of Christ in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a return with a 1000 year rule, followed by Jesus leaving as Satan deceives all the nations, whereby Jesus returns again to eliminate Satan.

Do you agree with me?

(Revelation 20:7-10)
When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Are you claiming that Jesus has not left and all the nations from every corner of the earth take up arms to fight Jesus while he is still here?

May I ask how this happens since all sinners were killed in Revelation 19?

 

@taisto you are very inconsistent in your responses you read into text what you need to find "since all sinners were killed in Revelation 19" and deny clear scripture in Rev 20:1-6.

 

There is no Scripture stating Jesus leaves after the Second Coming and steps aside. Stepping aside would be letting Satan have control. John does not even say Satan leads this army.

Can you even see the Millennium from the pre-mill perspective, or are you interpreting your point from your point of view? You claim Jesus comes after the Millennium and then steps aside.

Pre-mill claims Jesus is on earth for the entire 1000 years and never steps aside for Satan. There is no battle as those marching against Jerusalem are consumed before they reach Jerusalem. They are coming from all four directions, from the farthest part of the map away from Jerusalem. They don't all even come from the same place on the map. There is no leader leading a revolt.

Why would pre-mill view this period like there is a FP, beast, and Satan leading a single army?

Are you asking why God let Satan deceive people? Why did God let Satan deceive Eve?

 

Tell me exactly what I am denying. Be precise by quoting the exact phrase(s) and highlighting that phrase in Revelation 20:1-6.
Your general accusations are meaningless. It is time you show us that you have even read the passage.

 

Thank you for clarifying.
Indeed, there is no scripture stating that Jesus goes away. In fact, Revelation tells us that the Bride (Church) comes to earth and all evil is removed from the earth upon Jesus return. (Revelation 21)

Do you mean, can I see Jesus returning before he reigns for 1000 year, but mysteriously is challenged by nations from all over the world exactly after the 1000th year ends?

I can see Jesus reigning for eternity after he comes back, which is what Revelation tells us he does.

Why is there a revolt from all areas of the world? Why is Satan deceiving the nations when Christ has established his reign where Revelation 21 says no sin can enter?

You have this huge problem with sin not being destroyed, even though Revelation 19 tells us all the wicked are fed to the vultures.

Why do you ignore this?

Does Satan receive the nations from all areas of the earth? Yes or no?

Did not Jesus pay the redemption price for all who were under Adams curse? All who are in Christ are saved.

Revelation 19 tells you that all the sinners are killed. There is no sin when Jesus returns and established his Kingdom, the new garden.

What you seem to be saying is that there is a second fall in the new garden. That the cycle of rebellion and sin starts over again. That a new Redeemer would be needed to save this new batch of sinners, but God doesn't, this time, offer grace. Instead God kills them all.

Sir, can you really build that house of cards from Revelation 20:1-10 and expect it to stand???

 

What sin is committed in Revelation 20:8?

Was Satan a sinner for deceiving Eve?

Was Eve a sinner because she was deceived?

Can there be a deception without any sin involved? Why not?

Eve was deceived prior to sin entering the world. There is no sin during the Millennium. There is not even any sin in marching to Jerusalem. At least as far as we know. Is there a law about traveling across the earth, even for the purpose of war, that is broken as a sin. Is listening to Satan a sin? Is there a law stating one cannot listen to Satan? Is there a law, thou shalt not be deceived?

You never answered the question, why did God let Satan deceive Eve? If you can answer that question, then it would apply to those without sin at the end of the Millennium, who are deceived, and not a single sinner among them.

I am not saying there are sinners and those in Adam's dead corruptible flesh still on earth, at the start of the Millennium. Sinners cannot be deceieved by Satan to sin. Sinners sin because they are born into sin.

Still waiting for the verse that states Eve was created a sinner and had a sin nature so Satan could deceive her.

My point is that all who live and are born in the Millennium, are physically like Adam and Eve were, prior to Adam's disobedience. They are without sin.

 

(Revelation 20:7-9)
When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

Read the text and then see how utterly silly you are being.

Satan was a sinner for pridefully rebelling against God.

Eve is a sinner for pridefully rebelling against God. This rebellion is instigated by Satan. (Genesis 3)

No. Lying is a sin. Therefore deception is sin.

No. Satan entered into the garden and lied. Sin was present in Satan. Eve, obeyed the lie rather than God.

Therefore all creation is in the new garden.
Satan is released and somehow there is an uncountable number of rebels against God's people. Since they are not God's people, there must be an uncountable number of newly fallen "Adam's and Eve's" in your fantasy narrative.

This uncountable number march against God's people. Therefore they are sinners in rebellion against God. There is a reason God kills them.

What are you even talking about? You are being senseless.

Again, lying is a sin. By obeying the lie, you rebel against God.

Does the Bible answer this question? If it does, quote the passage. How can anyone but God himself answer this question?

Are you always this obtuse?

How is answering the unknowable somehow answering the question of sin at the end of the Millennium?

What you are advocating for is a brand new Garden of Eden event where those whom God has created without any sin nature are once again deceived by God. But, it's not just one person or two. In this situation it is an uncountable number who fall from grace.

I just shake my head at the insanity of your proposition.

Good. Christ has wiped sin away. The bride has come down.

You just contradicted your statement above. You stated: "I am not saying there are sinners and those in Adam's dead corruptible flesh still on earth, at the start of the Millennium."

Who ever made that claim. You'll not find it and I have not made such a claim. I don't even understand why you bring this up.

Which means that somehow, in the new garden, an uncountable number of "Adam's and Eve's" believe the lie and Jesus atoning sacrifice was not sufficient for them.

Moreso, you create this fantasy theory from 3 verses in Revelation 20.

@all, is there one person on the BB who agrees with @timtofly? Having heard countless premillennialists in my years, I have never heard such a proposition as timtofly has just proposed.