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#4 How could a person who sees the words 'go up' process them to be instructing them to 'go down'?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Alan Gross, Dec 23, 2023.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    II Thessalonians 2:3; "Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
    or that is worshipped;
    so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
    shewing himself that he is God."

    The men and and women of our generation
    who comprise essentially all of Christianity, today,

    have interrupted Jesus Christ while He was speaking
    on the very subject of How God is to be Worshipped

    and essentially all of Christianity has said
    to the Sovereign God of the Universe,

    "Stop right there and let me tell You how it is going to be,
    between You and me on this thing of Worship.

    And You can tell this, to the One Who sent You".

    And, as a result, they have given place to the devil.

    In our day, Satan has robbed God's children of the teachings
    of How He is to be Worshipped acceptably, by changing God's Word,
    into meaning exactly the opposite of what God said,

    and after being dependent on producing that change in meaning
    in God's Word, Satan was able to construct a false "church",
    based entirely on this new meaning given to it, by him,

    and it is by conjoining their devote allegiance to professing
    and testifying of this false "church" of Satan's,
    and in its sanctuary where Satan receives their worship,

    while at same time, the children of God
    have almost altogether dispensed with
    and subordinated God's prescribed means of Worshipping Him
    to the realm of the unknown,

    much less,

    to be Spiritually blessed with having God the Father's instructions,
    the Holy Spirit's participation, or Jesus Christ's Preeminence,
    Lordship, and Headship involved in their lives
    or those of their posterity.

    In doing so, they have offended God the Father, God the Holy Spirit,

    and God the Son, by rejecting the Triune Godhead, THEIR WORD,
    and the proper Worship of THEM, to such an extent that
    they have brought on themselves The Judgment of God.

    I Samuel 15:26; "for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD,
    and the LORD hath rejected thee..."

    You can't even force feed it to them.

    They have been made oblivious and blind to all of it.

    "And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul."
    Psalm 106:14.

    7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work".

    11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
    that they should believe a lie".

    I Samuel 4:21; "And she named the child Ichabod, saying,
    The glory is departed..."
     
  2. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    I don’t understand post #1.
     
  3. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    “Go up” does not mean “go down”.

    It simply means “go” most often.

    The OP makes no sense. It doesn’t tell where it’s coming from, what the point is, nor does it point toward any kind of solution to whatever problem has not been adequately described. It just rambles around.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    A PRIMARY DISTINCTIVE within each of these four posts
    is the presence of an inherent inability and utter obliviousness
    to some ideas and concepts presented in God's Word
    and the incapacity for them to be discerned,
    by some folks who have been thoroughly imbibed and inundated
    with their presuppositions.

    Their presuppositions insolate and envelope them within a stronghold
    that precludes, forfeits, and compromises any normal reasoning
    they may otherwise possess.

    If I am prejudiced to only believe "food is harmful to you",
    then, as an Anorexic, as soon as someone says,
    "Hey, it looks like you have picked up a couple of pounds",

    that by itself alone is immediately going to start hurling me
    into, "a spasmodic fit of abject HORROR",
    just based entirely on my prior conditioning and presuppositions,

    whereas, anyone else might hear that said just fine and
    understand it, but hardly even notice it
    any more than any other offhand comment.

    This is #4 O.P., of 4.

    #1 How could a person who sees the words 'go up' process them to be instructing them to 'go down'?

    #2 How could a person who sees the words 'go up' process them to be instructing them to 'go down'?

    #3 How could a person who sees the words 'go up' process them to be instructing them to 'go down'?

    Maybe, you didn't know "it was a thing"?

    You didn't know that "it was a thing"? that you are supposed to know about
    that you didn't already have an understanding of?

    Something new that you are supposed to learn, to, "be in the know"?

    So, you will now see it as "a thing", "status", "state of affairs", "advance",
    "development", or of a "progression in conditions", etc.?

    Jesus Branded "a thing" like that, to be His very Own.

    When He talked about it, He used the possessive pronoun, "My".

    So, you probably know what it is, now, but did you know
    that Jesus considered it, to be a very specific, particular, "thing",
    "status", "state of affairs", "advance", "development",
    or of a "progression in conditions", etc.?

    Jesus was bringing to our attention, HIS NOTION and CONCEPT
    of the very specific, particular, "thing", that HE WAS TALKING ABOUT,
    by His use of the Greek term,
    "ekklesia".

    Jesus was Branding HIS SPECIFIC VERSION
    of that general term,
    "ekklesia",
    meaning,
    "an organized local governing body",
    AND HE WAS BRANDING and CLAIMING THAT HIS MODIFICATION
    of that normal,
    "organized local governing body", BELONGS TO HIM.

    Jesus Christ's
    MODIFICATION
    of an "organized local governing body",
    was what Jesus He said that He was going to "build",
    or "continue to build", etc., and is implying
    that He was going to
    "edify", and "continue to edify", etc.,
    that "thing" He was going to "build".

    Jesus'
    "thing," that He said He was going to "build",
    from the concept and substructure of the Greek word meaning,
    an "organized local governing body", would soon include
    numerous SPIRITUAL and DIVINE MODIFICATIONS,

    THAT JESUS WAS GOING TO
    "BUILD" on that
    "organized local governing body", concept and substructure,

    to CREATE and INSTITUTE, for all Time and Eternity,
    a brand new
    "thing", that Jesus was PERSONALLY EMBRACING
    AS HIS POSSESSION, when He referred to,
    in our English translation, Jesus called,
    "My church".

    con't
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    So, what did Jesus Proclaim and Predict at this time
    that He had Providentially Determined to
    "build", as His "church"?

    If you are Spiritually Blessed by God Himself, to understand,
    JESUS WAS GOING TO "BUILD" on that
    "organized local governing body", concept and substructure,

    and to CREATE and INSTITUTE, for all Time and Eternity,
    HIS OWN PERSONAL DESIGN for HIS DIVINE INSTITUTION,
    in which GOD WOULD CONTINUALLY BE GLORIFIED ON EARTH,

    by His faithful children who would always assemble to Worship Him
    throughout this current New Testament Age of Churches,

    and where His faithful children would be found with
    their "lights on a Candlestick" being obedient to God's Word
    and Commands that HE GAVE TO JESUS' CHURCHES,

    TO BE GOD'S WITNESSES TO THE WORLD,
    UNTIL JESUS RETURNS IN JUDGMENT, AT THE END of TIME:

    then, we have Book on it, in this same context
    where Jesus announces His intention
    to Establish HIS
    "CANDLESTICKS",

    that just as Jesus told Simon Peter;


    IF you are Spiritually Blessed by God Himself,
    to understand, from
    Matthew 16:18,

    that JESUS CHRIST WAS GOING TO "BUILD" HIS OWN

    "organized local governing body", concept,
    to CREATE and INSTITUTE, for all Time and Eternity,

    HIS OWN PERSONALLY DESIGNED DIVINE INSTITUTIONS,
    in which GOD WOULD CONTINUALLY BE GLORIFIED ON EARTH,

    then, we certainly may also know, just as we read here;

    16:17; "Jesus answered and said unto him,
    Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:

    "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
    but my Father which is in heaven."

    If not, Jesus' Words to the Pharisees and the Sadducees
    just before this account must succinctly apply;

    16:7
    "And they reasoned among themselves...."

    8 "Which when Jesus perceived, He said unto them,
    O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves..."
    ?

    What do you see and perceive Jesus to be saying, here?

    "And I say also unto thee,...upon this rock, I will build my church;
    and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18.


    con't
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "The men and women of our generation
    who comprise essentially all of Christianity, today,

    have interrupted Jesus Christ while He was speaking
    on the very subject of How God is to be Worshipped,

    right here: "And I say also unto thee,...upon this rock, I will build..."

    STOP!


    and essentially all of Christianity has said
    to the Sovereign God of the Universe,

    "Stop right there and let me tell You how it is going to be,
    between You and me on this thing of Worship.

    And You also can tell the One Who sent You,
    JUST HOW IT REALLY IS!".

    And right there, interrupting the SON of GOD JESUS CHRIST,
    Himself, in mid-sentence, all of known Christianity butts in,
    to put their two-cents worth in and says, in effect,

    "We've got this, step aside Jesus, we already know,
    You're just about to say, "And I say also unto thee,...

    upon this rock, I will build...", OUR "CHURCH",
    A "UNIVERSAL INVISIBLE KINGDOM of ALL SAVED PEOPLE"!!

    "So, why don't you go wash some feet or something,
    while WE PLAY "CHURCH" OUR WAY and LEAVE US BE!"


    And, as a result, they have given place to the devil.

    All Universal "church" advocates see this word,
    "church" that Jesus used, as Him saying something
    that means: a βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom, instead.

    However, as translated in the Bible, the word, "church",
    Jesus used, was
    ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly

    and it has virtually the absolute complete opposite meaning
    of βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom.

    βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom
    IS NEVER AND CAN NEVER BE ASSOCIATED
    WITH The Bible WORD:
    ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly, a (religious) congregation.

    ONLY WHEN MEN/(THE DEVIL) CAME ALONG LATER
    AFTER BIBLE TIMES AND CHANGED
    ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly,

    to "somehow spontaneously" "also"
    HAVE A COMPLETELY OPPOSITE MEANING(???)
    of βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom(???)

    All "Universal "CHURCH" advocates "read" this word,
    "church" that Jesus used, AND THEN PROCESS IT


    as if it had "metamorphosed into"(???), something that
    they think they are reading, instead, and only see:
    "THE UNIVERSAL INVISIBLE "CHURCH",
    in their minds and buy THAT LIE that was sold to them.

    GOD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

    con't
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly, a (religious) congregation,

    Stands on its own perfectly well in every occurrence of it,

    WITHOUT ANY PRECEDENCE or NEED to "CHANGE IT",
    just as Jesus used it and as God intended in the New Testament.


    In our day, Satan has robbed God's children of the teachings

    about How He is to be Worshipped acceptably,
    by changing God's Word, into meaning exactly the opposite
    of what God said...

    Every time the word "church", as used in the Bible by Jesus
    and by all of the other writers of the New Testament,
    when speaking of His Divine institution He built, refers to
    "a local organized assembly of baptized believers, etc."

    Every time. 115 times.

    Christianity was sold that seemingly impossible suggestion
    that "since another opposite meaning could "appear"
    to be what "God must be referring to instead",

    and then take the Divine Authority to "add" that new diametrically
    polar opposite meaning into the Bible, as if that
    "is probably just fine and O.K. with God to do."(????)

    However, in doing so, it makes God into a liar
    concerning what He originally had written in the Bible,
    when Jesus used the Greek word that He did,
    and causes the Bible to contradict itself, now,
    from what it had always been expressing previously.

    The new meaning added to that of
    "a local organized assembly of baptized believers, etc.",
    is exactly what you have probably heard "the church" to be,
    as, "all saved people", or something like that,
    which would have been the word, βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom
    IF THAT WAS WHAT JESUS HAD MEANT TO BE TALKING ABOUT,
    however,

    Jesus chose a perfectly normal Greek word,
    ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly, a (religious) congregation",
    to express what He had intended to do, and that is:

    JESUS CHRIST WAS GOING TO "BUILD" HIS OWN

    "organized local governing body", concept,
    to CREATE and INSTITUTE, for all Time and Eternity,

    HIS OWN PERSONALLY DESIGNED DIVINE INSTITUTIONS,
    in which GOD WOULD CONTINUALLY BE GLORIFIED ON EARTH.


    Since people have taken it upon themselves
    to ADD TO THE WORD of GOD
    another opposite meaning, to Jesus' word "church",
    SIMPLY BY SUGGESTING THAT
    it "appears" to be what "God must be referring to instead",

    and then usurping His Divine Authority and adding in
    that new diametrically polar opposite meaning,
    by reasoning with their flesh, using a mind
    that was affected by the curse of the Fall of Adam, and "think" that it
    "is probably just fine and O.K. with God to do."(????)

    they are actually putting the definition of a Greek word in its place,
    and switching out the word "church" to mean a "kingdom",
    βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom.

    All of God's children who are currently alive on the face of the earth,
    have been born into The Kingdom of God
    βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom, when they were saved
    and are all then under King Jesus, as their Savior, and King.

    That Kingdom of God is worldwide
    and contains every saved soul alive on planet Earth, as we said.

    That description of The Kingdom of God
    βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom, however,

    is drastically different
    and virtually the opposite meaning of
    "a local organized assembly of baptized believers, etc.",
    ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly,

    which is, again, what Jesus Divinely Originated
    and was to "build" and equip for carrying out the business of God,
    as individual governing bodies in various locations
    all around the world, UNTIL JESUS COMES AGAIN.

    So, now, What do you see and perceive Jesus to be saying, here?

    "And I say also unto thee,...upon this rock, I will build My church;
    and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
    Matthew 16:18.


    1.) "And I say also unto thee,...
    upon this rock,
    I will build My" ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly?

    or

    2.)
    "And I say also unto thee,...
    upon this rock, I will build My" βασιλεία (basileia), a kingdom?

    Now, there's a Bible question for you.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    #4 How could a person who sees the words 'go up'
    process them to be instructing them to 'go down'?

    At issue is, "a person who sees" the words 'go up'

    who them would "process them" to be instructing them to 'go down'.

    From O.P. # 2,


    As an example, for our day and times,

    "For 117 years of its existence the Southern Baptist Convention
    had no article of faith about the universal, invisible church.

    "In the 1950s and 1960s the liberals ceased power,
    and in 1962 a revised confession was adopted which said:

    "The New Testament speaks also of the church
    as the body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages"

    (Article VI)."

    In Search of the Universal Invisible Church - Baptist Because

    Why the change?


    Do you realize, that BEFORE this new Article VI COULD BE voted
    into the Southern Baptist Convention's Articles of Faith,

    THAT NOT "ONE", BUT "TWO" BIBLE WORDS
    HAD TO BE COMPLETELY CHANGED INTO HAVING
    THE OPPOSITE MEANINGS TO WHAT THEY DO IN THE BIBLE?

    "The New Testament speaks also of "the church"
    as "the body" of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages"
    (Article VI)."

    When both "church" and "body" are always indicating
    LOCAL Individualistic Assemblages, in the Bible,

    and NEVER ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE TO SOMETHING
    "which includes all the redeemed of all ages."

    It's almost MORE CLOSE to being some degree of crazy to think of it.


    God's instructions on How He is to be Worshipped
    in The Era of the New Testament Age
    are contained within His revealed Words,
    specifically and absolutely dependent on the God-given ability
    to hear His Word, as He gave it.

    For example, if men were to take it upon themselves
    to change God's Word into a lie,
    by changing the words, "go down", into the words, "go up",

    How could a person who now sees these words 'go up'
    process them to be instructing them to "go down"?

    If someone were to change the words, "Go down to the white circle",
    in their mind, or by whatever process,
    to be the exact opposite of meaning
    and receive those words in a way that they now think that
    it instructs them to, "Go up to the black square",

    when is it that they could ever be rationally expected them to,
    "Go down to the white circle"?


    Worse yet, if men were to take Words given by God
    and lift them out of the Bible and make changes to them
    which utterly deny and completely contradict His Teaching on
    How He is to be Worshipped all during the New Testament Age

    then replace His Words in the Bible with the words of men,
    which have an exact opposite meaning to what God has revealed,

    how could anyone rationally expect that they could still fully discern

    and conceive of what God had provided in writing,
    as their instructions from Him,
    on how He is pleased to be Worshipped?

    His Words have now been changed, which disenfranchises
    and disassociates its readers, from what is now man's words,
    from any possibility of perceiving and receiving the message
    and instructions that God had Commanded.


    Men changed God's Word in the Bible that He said,
    when He said the word, "church", meaning, "a local assembly",

    into exactly the opposite expression,
    that they define for themselves as being,
    "the church as the worldwide body of Christ,
    in Heaven and on Earth,
    which includes all the redeemed of all ages".

    So, how is that any different from how the word "church"
    is used and is supposed to mean in the Bible?

    You may never know.

    How could that be mentally or intellectually possible?

    When an individual reads in the New Testament
    where Jesus and the other writers
    say the word, "church", meaning, "a local assembly",

    and that individual instantly, automatically, without any effort,
    "processes" the word they have just "read" to mean
    exactly the opposite expression,
    that they define for themselves as being,

    "the church as the worldwide body of Christ,
    in Heaven and on Earth,
    which includes all the redeemed of all ages"?


    They can't see "church", meaning, "a local assembly",
    even though, by processing it, instead, as
    "a worldwide body of Christ, in Heaven and on Earth,

    which includes all the redeemed of all ages"
    they are contradicting the plain teachings of scripture.

    Question:

    Does professing and practicing: "The Religion and


    The Doctrine of Denying and Contradicting God's Word",
    sound sane to you?

    Then, maybe we should just leave God's Words where we found them

    and not expect that changing them is within the realm of sanity.

    Deal?

    "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times,"

    That is now.

    Today.

    "some shall depart from the faith..."

    ...
     
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Given that it is not yet clear to you,
    "whatever problem has not been adequately described",

    if you ever do find some potential methodology that would,
    "point toward any kind of solution", please, let me know.

    It is no different than something like
    trying to find a way to stop people from feeling sorry for themselves.

    I've tried. I can't find it.

    U?

    So, could it very well be that God is involved in that?

    What else do you want me to do about it?

    Is it supposed to make any difference,
    if I did talk myself blue in the face?

    "The glory is departed..."

    "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils".
     
  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    That may be merely your personal understanding and interpretation. Your non-humble, biased understandings and interpretations are not perfect and infallible.

    Do you try to deny the fact that the same Greek word can have more than one meaning?

    Perhaps you disobey a clear command of God by bearing false witness with your misleading and unproven accusations against believers. Just because believers may disagree with you does not lead soundly to your accusations.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    “Upon this Rock, I will build My Church” ~ The Lord Jesus Christ.

    That is explicitly the universal Church, not a local church, thereby excluding all others.
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that I've ever seen anyone hit an O.P.
    any more dead center than that.

    For the O.P.: "How could a person who sees the words 'go up'
    process them to be instructing them to 'go down'?",

    you see the words "My Church” (i.e., "go down"), in Matthew 16:18,
    as "
    explicitly the universal Church, not a local church,
    thereby excluding all others
    " (i.e., "go up"), therefore,


    The Bible question for the day is,

    How could a person who sees the words,
    "universal Church", when they read where in Jesus says,

    "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
    and upon this rock I will build my "universal Church";
    and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it",

    process those words to be instructing them to Worship and serve God,
    in and through "My church", where the Greek word underlying our English translation is "ekklesia", meaning "a summoned out local governing body"?

    You tell me!

    How could a person who sees the words 'universal church'
    process them to be instructing them
    in regards to ''Jesus' local ONLY church(es)?"

    It's like the damage has been done and that it is somehow no longer intellectually possible for someone to read and see "My church" to mean what "My church" means, Biblically, from the mouth of Jesus Christ, Himself,

    and not what is just in their head, like, "universal Church"?

    Mystery, mystery, mystery

    And yet, we have AN ANSWER!!!

    AND THE ANSWER IS???

    THE ANSWER HAS TO AND MUST COME LIKE THIS:
    "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
    but my Father which is in heaven."

    Then, what happens?

    All of a sudden, "I will build my church"; means what Jesus said,

    "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", means that nothing will destroy Jesus' local church assemblies that will always be on earth as His governing bodies, until He comes again,

    and "one body" becomes "one local kind of governing church body of Jesus'",

    And "
    unto God be Glory in the church" means the church at Ephesus and that there would always be a local church body just like it bringing Glory to God, "throughout all ages, world without end", etc., etc.

    But,......not unless or until God reveals it to someone, OBVIOUSLY.


    Jesus was saying that He would build on that concept, of "a summoned out local governing body" to Divinely Institute "HIS church(es)", into being, Jesus' Christian ekklesias which were "composed of baptized believers who were united together for the purpose of winning people to Christ,
    baptizing them, and teaching them the Bible.

    "They observed two ordinances, baptism and the Lord’s Supper.

    "Their officers were bishops and deacons.

    "Their government was democratic.

    "...Although there were many such
    Christian ekklesias (local church bodies) throughout the Roman Empire
    there was only one kind (of church body= local).

    "They all have the same pattern with regard to membership, purpose, ordinances, officers, etc. as far as is indicated."*

    *Quote from "The Meaning of Ekklesia in The New Testament, by Ed Over by.





    I'm way in over my head here, of course, because you used the word "explicitly".

    That can mean nothing but trouble for me.

    (Ummm, except like this time, ahhh...there is no such thing, Biblically,
    as "the Universal Church". It's even an oxymoronic thing to say, "Universal Church".

    The word church, Biblically, is a local assemblage, while "universal" is the utter complete opposite in meaning.


    There is no "Global, Worldwide dispersed local assemblage".
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. You are capable of rational thinking.
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Your dude here, files off the Handle into some
    true Invisible Mystical Universe he calls "reality", in other places.

    Sorry, he is slipshod slapping together what he says is "the body of Christ",
    in a way that is only oxymoronic. He's all wet.

    If we could go with what the Bible defines "the body of Christ" to be,
    this could all get settled, just like that.

    However, that can actually never happen unless "The Bible Process",
    is followed, in gaining understanding that God intends for us to have,
    and that would be when;

    "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
    but my Father which is in heaven."


    Otherwise, all bets are off. The flesh profits nothing.

    "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."
    I Corinthians 12:27.

    How impossible is that to comprehend?

    The nine verses before this one in I Corinthians 12:27, say:

    18 "But now hath God set the members
    every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.


    19 "And if they were all one member, where were the body?

    20 "But now are they many members, yet but one body.

    21 "And the eye cannot say unto the hand,
    I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet,
    I have no need of you.


    22 "Nay, much more those members of the body,
    which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:


    23 "And those members of the body,
    which we think to be less honourable,
    upon these we bestow more abundant honour;
    and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.


    24 "For our comely parts have no need:
    but God hath tempered the body together,
    having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:


    25 "That there should be no schism in the body;
    but that the members should have the same care one for another.


    26 "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it;
    or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."


    Does that look like the "members in particular",
    in the next verse, I Corinthians 12:27,
    could be these same
    "members",
    in the nine verses immediately
    preceding this one, in context?

    12:18; "God set the members every one of them in the body",

    12:19; "if they were all one member, where were the body?",

    12:20; "now are they many members, yet but one body",

    12:22; "much more those members of the body,
    which seem to be more feeble, are necessary",

    12:23; "those members of the body,
    which we think to be less honourable",

    12:24; "God hath tempered the body together" (see vs 12:18),

    12:25; "That there should be no schism in the body;
    but that the members should have the same care one for another",

    12:26; "And whether one member suffer,
    all the members suffer with it;
    or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."


    12:27; "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."



    After all, this letter of I Corinthians was written to them,
    as members of the church there at Corinth.

    I Corinthians 1:
    1; "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ
    through the will of God, and Sosthenes
    our brother,


    2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,"


    All those "members in particular" in "the church of God which is at Corinth"
    were "the body of Christ", according to the Word of God.


    12:27; "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular,"
    and are the same "members"
    who "should have the same care one for another".


    So, who do you think, "ye", is referring to there, in vs 12:27?

    "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular,"?,

    "members in particular"?,

    "one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it"?,

    "those members of the body"?,

    "many members, yet but one body"?,

    "God set the members every one of them in the body"?



    Dare I, dare I ask?

    I believe that those members spoken of were "particular" "members"
    of "the body of Christ" vs 12:27a, at Corinth, i.e.,
    "The church of God which is at Corinth" vs 1:2.
    ...

    What we know for certain is "the body of Christ" in the Bible
    is nothing like this depiction, below:

     
    #15 Alan Gross, Jan 31, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2024
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The fellow below that you refer to as one of the "believers"
    that "may disagree with you", makes me lost.

    He and you too, maybe, are saying that if I were saved,
    then my salvation is "jeopardized", by what?

    By not believing in his numerous Satanic lies?

    I think I counted 14 Satanic lies, in ONE SENTENCE,
    that he is depending on, to tell me that I am not saved.

    Lost, they call it.

    If I had salvation, then, I lost it,
    according to his assertion which includes 14 Satanic lies.


    "Those who deny the
    (Satanic lies #1) "reality" of a ....(it is not any "reality" of God),
    (Satanic lies #2) "spiritual" ....(no "spiritual" body is taught in the Bible),
    (Satanic lies #3) "body of Christ"..(no "spiritual body" or any "body" unless local),
    (Satanic lies #4) "consisting of all who have been saved",..(this is nonexistent),
    (Satanic lies #5) "jeopardize"....(salvation can never be jeopardized),
    (Satanic lies #6) "the doctrine of union with Christ itself", (no "Union" depicted),
    (Satanic lies #7) "because they pervert"...(no perversion of not believing lies),
    (Satanic lies #8) "and distort"....(no distortion is made by believing Truth),
    (Satanic lies #9 "the primary figure",...(The "Head-body" figure is not salvation),
    (Satanic lies #10) "by which that relationship".(no saving relationship pictured),
    (Satanic lies #11) "is portrayed in Scripture"...(no saving figure is portrayed)
    (Satanic lies #12) "the figure of a head"...(Jesus' is Head of each local body),
    (Satanic lies #13) "and body"..(the "body" are each of Jesus' local bodies),
    (Satanic lies #14) "in union", ..(the union is functional with Jesus Christ having the Preeminent Lordship and Headship over each of His organized local governing bodies, who are independent of any other person or organization and operate solely under Jesus' Lordship, as their Guide and Head, in all matters.)
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    The problem that I see for your multiple churches idea is that Christ disagrees with you, Mat 16:18 "...I will build My church,...". Notice He did not say churches. His church is all those that believe in Him. They will be multiple assemblies of fellow believers but they are all part of His body the universal church
     
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