On "Throwing Your Vote Away"

[JonC]

Nope. All of God's elect were judged at the cross of Christ; Christ is their Surety Who paid the debt for ALL of their sins.

I am not sure that denying a passage while saying you are not is a logical position.

Either those who have been redeemed, who call God "Father", who have been chosen by God's foreknowledge", and who have been born again will be judged by God impartially according to their works or Scripture is wrong.

You can't hold your position on my post and not deny God's Word.

The more logical (and biblical) direction you could have taken was a discussion in the manner of this judgment. Instead you became fixated on the judgment of the lost.

 

[KenH]

The more logical (and biblical) direction you could have taken was a discussion in the manner of this judgment. Instead you became fixated on the judgment of the lost.

We are certainly on different trains of thought.

Welp, Jon, looks like your train didn't make it.

 

[canadyjd]

No, it does not make my statement false.

Scripture does not state Christian judge one another by their fruit. BUT Scripture does state that Christians judge one another by their fruit……..

I see I misunderstood your previous post….

I agree that we cannot know.

That said, I don't think we can take somebody at their word. The reason is that Scripture indicates we take them by their fruit and treat them accordingly.

If they are living for the flesh then we treat them as if they are lost…..

When we have no information that indicates otherwise, do we take them at their word based on their profession of faith or do we start looking for “fruit” that proves their profession of faith?

I will take them at their word.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

I see I misunderstood your previous post….
When we have no information that indicates otherwise, do we take them at their word based on their profession of faith or do we start looking for “fruit” that proves their profession of faith?

I will take them at their word.

peace to you

I agree. The only reason not to take a claim of faith at one's word is if their behavior contracts that claim.

 

[JonC]

We are certainly on different trains of thought.

Welp, Jon, looks like your train didn't make it.

Lol....God always makes it.

Scripture tells us several times that we will be judged by our works. We will be held accountable for our voice. We will be held accountable for our works.

We cannot deny that without denying Scripture.

I am not talking about the judgment of the lost (condemnation).

But you are wrong to deny passages that don't suit you. And that is exactly what you did.

 

[KenH]

And that is exactly what you did.

I did no such thing.

 

[JonC]

I did no such thing.

Sure you did.

I asked if you believed those redeemed by the blood of Christ would be impartiality judged by God according to thir works. You answered that they wouldn't.

That is directly denying the passage. I even tried to pull you back from denying the passage by pointing out we were not defining that judgment (but you kept pushing towards the judgment of the lost).

But to present a biblical answer, we should conduct ourselves knowing that God will judge our works. We will be accountable for our voice and deeds.

This isn't condemnation (where you were fixated).

 

[KenH]

Sure you did.

No, I did not.

I asked if you believed those redeemed by the blood of Christ would be impartiality judged by God according to thir works. You answered that they wouldn't.

God's elect were judged at the cross in Christ as their Surety. The reprobates will be judged based on their filthy rags works.

That is directly denying the passage.

No, it is not.

But to present a biblical answer, we should conduct ourselves knowing that God will judge our works. We will be accountable for our voice and deeds.

If God judges me based on even the "best" of my imperfect, incomplete works, then I am totally hopeless and bound for Hell.

 

[JonC]

No, I did not.



God's elect were judged at the cross in Christ as their Surety. The reprobates will be judged based on their filthy rags works.



No, it is not.



If God judges me based on even the "best" of my imperfect, incomplete works, then I am totally hopeless and bound for Hell.

No, it is not. You are wrong to deny one passage and provide another to justify that denial.

How would judging a Christian by their works and holding a believer accountable for their voice (which Scripture says God WILL do) equate to going to Hell???.

You keep going to the Judgment of the lost. Why? We are not condemned. But we will be held accountable for our words and deeds.

 

[KenH]

How would judging a Christian by their works and holding a believer accountable for their voice (which Scripture says God WILL do) equate to going to Hell???

God's elect, chosen by God and given to Christ to be their Surety and accomplish a perfect, complete salvation on their behalf, have already been judged in Christ. God cannot judge them again. Maybe this hymn, written by Augustus Toplady, will explain it to you:

Isaiah 53:10; Psalms 116:7

1. From whence this fear and unbelief?
Hast thou, O Father, put to grief
Thy spotless Son for me?
And will the righteous Judge of men
Condemn me for that debt of sin
Which, Lord, was charged on thee?

2. Complete atonement thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid
Whate’er thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with thy blood?

3. If thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my room endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety’s hand,
And then again at mine.

4. Turn, then, my soul, unto thy rest;
The merits of thy great High Priest
Speak peace and liberty;
Trust in his efficacious blood,
Nor fear thy banishment from God,
Since Jesus died for thee.

 

[canadyjd]

No, it is not. You are wrong to deny one passage and provide another to justify that denial.

How would judging a Christian by their works and holding a believer accountable for their voice (which Scripture says God WILL do) equate to going to Hell???.

You keep going to the Judgment of the lost. Why? We are not condemned. But we will be held accountable for our words and deeds.

I think I understand your point concerning the 1 Peter passage.

Believers are not judged by God to determine whether we are “saved” but rather our works are judged by God as to whether they are worthy of a profession of faith in Jesus.

Do I understand you correctly?

peace to you

 

[KenH]

but rather our works are judged by God as to whether they are worthy of a profession of faith in Jesus.

If God judges me, for any reason or purpose, based on whether I have done something worthy, then I am hopeless and bound for Hell.

 

[canadyjd]

If God judges me, for any reason or purpose, based on whether I have done something worthy, then I am hopeless and bound for Hell.

KenH, I understand the point. The question isn’t whether a person is worthy of salvation. No one is worthy. However, scripture does clearly state our works are judged whether to be worthy (not of salvation) but of our profession of faith.

I like to say Baptists don’t believe doing any good work will get them into heaven… and many have decided to prove it.

Salvation is always about a transformed life which includes doing the works God has prepared for us.

peace to you

 

[KenH]

Salvation is always about a transformed life

Salvation is ALL about Christ. Period.

 

[canadyjd]

Salvation is ALL about Christ. Period.

No, KenH, it is about Christ transforming a person

peace to you

 

[KenH]

No, KenH, it is about Christ transforming a person

No, it is about Christ Jesus procuring salvation for God's elect, based on Christ fulfilling all of the conditions for their salvation and preservation.

The flesh is still the flesh. The elect's soul is regenerated, not his flesh. It is still the same filthy, vile, wretched body as it was before regeneration( Romans 7:7-25). The new body comes at the resurrection when Christ returns and establishes the new heavens and earth in which righteousness dwells. As Ephesians 2:10 states, it is only the works that God has already ordained and that He does in His elect that they do anything good(1 Corinthians 15:10; Galatians 2:20).

 

[JonC]

I think I understand your point concerning the 1 Peter passage.

Believers are not judged by God to determine whether we are “saved” but rather our works are judged by God as to whether they are worthy of a profession of faith in Jesus.

Do I understand you correctly?

peace to you

The first part is right.

But I don't know how our works are judged. That is something I have wondered about.

What I do know is that Peter addresses "born again", "redeemed", "sanctified" believers and tells them to conduct their lives in a holy manner knowing that the God they call Father will also judge them according to their works.

I know that Jesus told us we are accountable for our voice.

I know that Paul speaks of the believer will be accountable for his works - that some will be reworded but others will have everything burned up, though they themselves will be saved (as one who escapes a fire).

So to simply suggest Christians will not be judged according to their works (although they themselves will be saved) is to deny several passages.

But I do not know how that will look.

I tend to think of it as a refining fire. Some things endure, others are destroyed.

 

[JonC]

God's elect, chosen by God and given to Christ to be their Surety and accomplish a perfect, complete salvation on their behalf, have already been judged in Christ. God cannot judge them again. Maybe this hymn, written by Augustus Toplady, will explain it to you:

Isaiah 53:10; Psalms 116:7

1. From whence this fear and unbelief?
Hast thou, O Father, put to grief
Thy spotless Son for me?
And will the righteous Judge of men
Condemn me for that debt of sin
Which, Lord, was charged on thee?

2. Complete atonement thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid
Whate’er thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with thy blood?

3. If thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my room endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety’s hand,
And then again at mine.

4. Turn, then, my soul, unto thy rest;
The merits of thy great High Priest
Speak peace and liberty;
Trust in his efficacious blood,
Nor fear thy banishment from God,
Since Jesus died for thee.

Hymn vs Scripture. Interesting.

The Bible says several times that Christians will be judged according to their works.

Now, you keep going back to salvation which is not the issue. You keep talking about the judgment of the lost, which is not the issue. You say Christians will not go to Hell, which nobody denies.

Get on the subject, Bro. There is a reason Jesus, Paul, and Peter spoke of God judging believers by their works.

 

[MrW]

I did no such thing.

Jon, you are not understanding me. Please notice verse 17: "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear."

Just as "all" in the Bible does not always mean every person in the world, and just as "world" in the Bible does not always mean every person in the world", after the "," following the word, "Father", one must determine who is the "every man" whose works God judges.

We know He has already judged His elect at the cross when Christ died for the sheep, God's elect, chosen by Him before the world began. So whoever the "every man" is cannot be God's elect after the Holy Spirit has regenerated them. Therefore, the "every man" must be the reprobates and also God's elect before the Holy Spirit regenerates; as even though the standing of God's elect before God was determined before the world began, they come into this world in Adam so that they are in the same state as the reprobates, and then their state changes when the Holy Spirit regenerates and they become a new creature in Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Everyone is judged for their works.

The saved were judged at the cross of Christ for their sins, but still face a judgment of their works for rewards or loss of rewards.

The loss are to be judged to determine if they are to receive few or many stripes.

 

[KenH]

The saved were judged at the cross of Christ for their sins, but still face a judgment of their works for rewards or loss of rewards.

Out of curiosity, in your paradigm, what reward are you most angling for - a larger mansion, a closer place to stand near God's throne, a bigger "Atta-boy!" from God?