Righteous Faith

[Van]

A question to ask yourselves is "Does God credit the faith of some humans as righteous faith?" See Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25. The answer of course is yes.

How about does God ask fallen individuals to put their faith in Christ? The answer of course is yes.

Does John 3:16 indicate everyone whose faith is credited as righteous faith will not perish?
The answer of course is yes.

Some claim individuals, after hearing the gospel revelation, choose to believe and thus save themselves.
Some claim individuals cannot hear the gospel unless given faith by irresistible grace, and thus there is not necessity to repent and believe.

But neither side has much to say about the necessity of God crediting our faith (rather than not crediting our faith) as a prerequisite of salvation.

 

[Dave G]

Faith is not a pre-requisite of salvation....nothing that we as men can contribute, is.

As for crediting a person's faith as righteousness, He is pleased to do so;
not as a necessity, but as an act of His grace and mercy towards His people...
People like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Mary, Miriam, Esther and so forth.

The only righteousness that the believer has, is from Jesus Christ.
There is no other righteousness, only God's righteousness.

Nothing that we as believers have or do is righteous in and of itself;
Not our faith, not our works, nothing.

Everything we have or do is because of Him and Him alone:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
to declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." ( Romans 3:21-26 ).

" For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.
But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 5:17-21 ).


" But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" ( Philippians 3:7-9 ).


The only faith a believer has, is from Jesus Christ ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Philippians 3:9, Hebrews 12:2 )

" For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

 

[Van]

I see the usual denial of the obvious has been posted yet again.

Are we saved "through" faith? You bet! Thus scripture says our faith is utilized in some way to obtain salvation through grace.

Did anyone say God chooses to credit a person's faith as righteousness by necessity? Nope so obfuscation on display.

Is the only "righteousness" a person has is from Christ? Nope. Did God credit Abraham's faith to him as righteousness? You bet. There is a total difference with being credited with righteousness of something and being made righteousness by the blood of the Lamb. This is not rocket science.

Did anyone say we (in our lost state) can do something righteous? Nope. All our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God.

Is everything we do because of Christ? Nope. Before we are saved, we certainly sought God without being regenerated.
After we are saved, is everything we do in accordance with Christ? Nope, we stumble, make mistakes, and strive to become more like Christ and more effective ambassadors for Christ.

Romans 3:21-26 (NET)
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed -
namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed. This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness.

Philippians 3:9 (NET)
and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness - a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness.

Do any of the many verses cited say the only faith we have is from Christ? Nope, none of them do. Do they indicated that our faith was a work of righteousness? Nope, nothing we think or do as a lost person is righteous in the eyes of God. But God can make a sows ear into a silk purse, and credit our worthless faith as righteousness to us. Yes, indeed! Just as scripture teaches.​

 

[Van]

Are we individually chosen for salvation through faith? You bet, 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Were we corporately chosen for salvation when Christ was chosen to be the Redeemer, yes. Thus we were corporately chosen before creation as part of the group whose faith would be credited as righteousness. Ephesians 1:4.

All scripture fits together and does not conflict. To claim God chose individuals who in the eyes of the world were poor, before creation is to claim absurdity and deny the plain meaning of scripture. God obviously chooses individuals for salvation while they are physically living and have put their faith, as worthless as it may be, in Christ as Savior and Lord.

When God chose His Redeemer, individually, He chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen "in Him." (As a consequence of His election as Redeemer)

 

[Brightfame52]

@Van

Before we are saved, we certainly sought God without being regenerated.

Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Does God count ones Faith as righteousness ?

Rom 4:5,9

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Folks many deceivers and spiritually unlearned have taken scriptures like these and stated that they are teaching that a mans faith is counted to God as their righteousness. However that's not true, those scriptures teach that the object of ones Faith [ Christ] is their righteousness. God given Faith reveals and receives Christ as their righteousness. Paul wrote 1 Cor 1:30

.30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Now how does one come to know if Christ has been made their righteousness of God ?

God sends a Gospel message to them, wherein the righteousness of God [Christ] is revealed to their God given Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Now Faith cant be the believers righteousness when righteousness is being revealed to Faith, go figure !

 

[Dave G]

Thus scripture says our faith is utilized in some way to obtain salvation through grace.

Again ( and respectfully ), no it does not.
Please look at what the Scriptures actually say, again.

Do any of the many verses cited say the only faith we have is from Christ? Nope, none of them do.

Yes, many of them, in fact, do this very thing.
There are many "verses" ( or things that God has to say in His word ) about a believer's faith, that speak of their faith as being "of" or from Jesus.

Textual analysis of passages like Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:20 and Philippians 3:9, for example, shows us that the Greek word " Ἰησοῦ" means "from Jesus", while the Greek word "Χριστοῦ" means "from Christ"...

Romans 3:22 Greek Text Analysis
Galatians 2:16 Greek Text Analysis
Philippians 3:9 Greek Text Analysis

Whether or not ( or even why ) the many English translations of the Bible in print today actually do ( or do not ) capture and render this properly from the Greek into the English, is the subject of another thread....
But the fact remains that God's word contains many passages that tell the believer in Jesus Christ that their faith is from God or from Christ.

The same word that tells them that their faith is not "of" themselves, but is rather a gift from God:
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: " ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

 

[Dave G]

The teaching that righteousness is from God is the truth of His word ( Romans 5:17 ).
The teaching that righteous faith actually comes from ( or originates with ) God is also born out in His word.

Two of the passages that declare this readily come to my mind as I write this.
Here is the first one:

" Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: " ( Philippians 3:8-9 ).

In the above, I see that Paul very clearly addresses the Philippian believers and tells them that he does not have his own righteousness, but that which is by the faith OF Christ.
So, we see two things clearly stated in this passage above, do we not?

Righteousness is from God by faith.
Righteousness is through the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave G]

Here is the other:

" We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." ( Galatians 2:16-21 ).

In the above, I clearly see Paul telling the believers in Galatia that, they that are Jews by nature ( believers in Jesus Christ, see Romans 2:28-29 ) know that a person is not justified by the works of the Law, but instead by the faith "of" ( or from ) Jesus Christ...

Further down, Paul tells the Galatians that the life he now lives in the flesh ( in his current body before being resurrected with a new body ), he lives by the faith "of" the Son of God.

 

[Dave G]

With this firmly in mind, the very same faith that God credits to the believer as righteousness in places like Romans 4:1-5, is shown to be a product of their new life in Christ;
It is not something that we as wicked men have and then contribute in order to be made righteous with God.

In other words, righteous faith actually originates with ( or comes from ), God through Jesus Christ ... not from the believer, but to the believer.
Because of this, a person's faith does not save them in the eternal sense, but the Lord is pleased to honor the believer's God-given gift of faith when that person believes and trusts Him for all kinds of things in this life.

Again:

" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." ( Galatians 2:20 )

...by the faith of who?

By the faith of the Son of God.

 

[kyredneck]

The teaching that righteous faith actually comes from ( or originates with ) God is also born out in His word.

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2

 

[Van]

@Van
Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

LOL, here is a citation of a verse supposedly supporting, I assume, the false doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability.

Yes it is an absurd claim, demonstrating a rather complete ignorance of the meaning of the verse. There is nothing I can do as I have explained this verse many, many times and still not one Calvinist addresses the actual meaning of the verse.

Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!

 

[Van]

Again ( and respectfully ), no it does not.
Please look at what the Scriptures actually say, again.

Yes, many of them, in fact, do this very thing.
There are many "verses" ( or things that God has to say in His word ) about a believer's faith, that speak of their faith as being "of" or from Jesus. SNIP
.

Once again, none of the very verses cited say our faith is from (instilled by) Jesus.

Rom 3:22 NET
namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
​

Here the genitive of Jesus is taken to be a subjective genitive, thus Jesus Christ's faithfulness, not our faith instilled by Jesus.

Gal 2:16 (NET)
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.​

Once again, when Jesus (or Christ) is in the genitive, the translation is taken to be a subjective genitive.

Gal 2:20 (NET)
I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.​

Ditto, once again we see the genitive taken as a subjective genitive.

Gal 3:22
But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given - because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ - to those who believe.​

Ditto, once again we see the genitive taken as a subjective genitive.

Phil 3:9 (NET}
and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness - a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness.​

Five out of five false claims, as all five examples of Jesus or Christ or Son of God in the genitive are taken as subjective.

To repeat, there are no verses, not one, that say our faith is instilled.

And finally yet another absolutely false claim is made that Ephesians 2:8 says our faith is the gift rather than our salvation.
Now they know that the "that" does not refer to faith (different gender) but make the claim to sidetrack truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

LOL, here is a citation of a verse supposedly supporting, I assume, the false doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability.

Yes it is an absurd claim, demonstrating a rather complete ignorance of the meaning of the verse. There is nothing I can do as I have explained this verse many, many times and still not one Calvinist addresses the actual meaning of the verse.

Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!

Wow you post in exact opposition to the truth and dont even blush Prov 30 20

Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

 

[Van]

Wow you post in exact opposition to the truth and dont even blush Prov 30 20

Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

Please stop with your infantile effort to change the subject to my behavior. That only demonstrates you are using false argumentation to support false doctrine.

There is nothing I can do as I have explained Romans 3:11 many, many times and still not one Calvinist addresses the actual meaning of the verse. Saying it means the exact opposite reflects a sand box mentality.

Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!​

 

[Dave G]

Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!

I agree, Van, and that is what God's word very pointedly states.

There is nothing I can do as I have explained Romans 3:11 many, many times and still not one Calvinist addresses the actual meaning of the verse.

As a believer in Jesus Christ, I can tell you that many people on this forum have indeed addressed this passage and it's actual meaning.
Here it is again:

" What then? are we better [than they?] No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes."

Please re-read it, Van.
Perhaps ( and it is my hope that ) in time, it will begin to mean to you what it actually says.
That we as men, both Jew and Gentile, are all under sin.

That we do not seek after God by faith.
There is no fear ( respect ) of God before our eyes.

 

[Van]

I agree, Van, and that is what God's word very pointedly states.

As a believer in Jesus Christ, I can tell you that many people on this forum have indeed addressed this passage and it's actual meaning.
Here it is again for the reader to decide:
SNIP

That we as men, both Jew and Gentile, are all under sin.
That we do not seek after God by faith.
SNIKP
We never have, and we never will outside a work of His grace upon any of us.

Wrong,
What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!

Did DaveG say those in view are the ones who sought God as a refuge? That they really did not seek God. Nope
Once again someone takes a vague verse such as "there are none who understand" and claim without a shred of support that refers to all the lost. However we have verse after verse saying some sought God by works and others sought God by faith.
But all those passages are never addressed. So I get the usual "Van does not understand" claptrap of those who treat scripture like a Golden Corral, taking what they like and leaving the rest.

 

[Brightfame52]

Please stop with your infantile effort to change the subject to my behavior. That only demonstrates you are using false argumentation to support false doctrine.

There is nothing I can do as I have explained Romans 3:11 many, many times and still not one Calvinist addresses the actual meaning of the verse. Saying it means the exact opposite reflects a sand box mentality.

Who are the "none" that do not understand, and what is it they do not understand. The Calvinist assumes the none refers to all the lost, but not those regenerated. Does the verse say or suggest that rewrite? Nope.

What do those in view not understand? That by the works of the Law no flesh will by justified? Yes
Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!​

You say men seek after God, the word of God says differently Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Dave G]

Why do those in view not seek God. Because they do not seek God by faith!

I agree.

Did DaveG say those in view are the ones who sought God as a refuge?

No Van, I did not.

I've said ( in past threads ) that those in view are the same ones that God says are in view in Romans 1...
Mankind as a whole.

Once again someone takes a vague verse such as "there are none who understand" and claim without a shred of support that refers to all the lost.

It may be vague to you, Van, but it's clear to me.
That is why I ask you to re-read it...
Because in my experience as a believer, I've been dull of hearing, spiritually-speaking.
My re-reading it over and over again ( and letting the words sink in ) has led to many "aha!" moments over the years.

That, sir, is my hope for you and all who read and believe God's word for themselves.

 

[Dave G]

However we have verse after verse saying some sought God by works and others sought God by faith.

Yes, Van, we do...and I quite agree.
We do have many places in the Bible that this is the case;
But we also have "verse" after "verse" that answers why they do.

For example, here is a question:
" Why do some not believe on Christ, nor do they believe His words, while others do?"

Scripture answers this question, and for me it does so in no uncertain terms:

" Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:42-47 ). <--- Some people cannot hear His words; and tit is because they are not "of" God. But those that are "of" God, do hear and believe His words.

" Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: " ( John 10:24-27 ). <---- Some people don't believe, and they don't because they are not Christ's sheep. But His sheep do believe, do hear His voice, and they do indeed follow Him.

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; " ( Philippians 1:29 ). <---- It was given to the believers at Philippi to believe on Christ, and also to suffer for His sake.

But all those passages are never addressed.

But all those passages have been addressed Van, and many times by some of those that have been mislabeled as "Calvinists" on this board.