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Does Jesus have one or two wills?
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
without a doubt the Bible answer is that Jesus Christ, post Incarnation, has two wills (Dyothelitism), the Divine as Almighty God, and the Human, both in the One Person The God-Man.
Without a real human will, Jesus' Human "nature" would be incomplete and therefore unreal
Those who support only a Divine Will (Monothelitism) in Jesus Christ after the Incarnation, are in gross heresy!
Without a real human will, Jesus' Human "nature" would be incomplete and therefore unreal
Those who support only a Divine Will (Monothelitism) in Jesus Christ after the Incarnation, are in gross heresy!
37818
Well-Known Member
We at least agree the Word remains one Person in adding His incarnation.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
do you believe that Jesus Christ has a human will?
37818
Well-Known Member
The Word was always co-eternal with God.
Genesis 1:1, In the beginning God . . . .
John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, . . .
And the Word was a different Person than God.
. . . and the Word was with God, . . .
. . . and the Word was God.
Being the same God, while being a different Person with God. John 1:2, The same was in the beginning with God.
Genesis 1:1, In the beginning God . . . .
John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, . . .
And the Word was a different Person than God.
. . . and the Word was with God, . . .
. . . and the Word was God.
Being the same God, while being a different Person with God. John 1:2, The same was in the beginning with God.
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes, His one eternal will added a finite humanity to it in the incarnation. And changed His mortal human will to become an immortal human will in His resurrection. He was always one Person.
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
so you saying, that after the Incarnation, Jesus Christ as YHWH, Who became the God-Man, only has one Will?
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes, He is solely one Person.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Just for the record, accusing people of heresy without offering SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT to convince them of their error is a violation of “Individual Soul Liberty” and not very BAPTIST of you.What you believe is heresy
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I have not studied the nuances of the question enough to either agree or disagree, but you have articulated something worth thinking about. Thank you.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You obviously don't know what you are talking about
Check early Church history and you will see that this was a huge controversy!
As I have already said, Jesus Christ could not have be truly human without a human will. He is eternally Almighty God and didn't give up His Divine Will
Philippians 2:5-8 is very clear on this
As is the fact that Jesus prayed "not My will" which refers to His human and not Divine will
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
Oh, what the Bible teaches is heresy to you? Matthew 26:39.What you believe is heresy
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I know a little about what I am talking about:
Baptists have had a long-term determination to adhere to the Biblical doctrine that they call "Individual Soul Liberty."
Church history verifies that Christians have died for this principle. The teaching that individuals are sovereign in matters of faith is one that Baptists will not compromise.
The individual soul is answerable to Almighty God and to Him alone. This precludes giving up that independency to a pope, a priest, a system, an organization, a convention, a fellowship, an association, or any other human being. None of these are given the authority to interpose anything whatsoever between the individual believer and God concerning any matter of faith.
A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination or to choose no religious belief system and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. Furthermore, a person may change his/her mind at any time.
This doctrine springs from the many examples in church history where the independency of the believer was stifled and sometimes even forbidden. Under the rule of Constantine, Roman law demanded that all people in the Roman Empire become Christians. The result of this law was forcing Christianity upon the masses by infant baptism and a meaningless profession by adults. Accordingly, the Dark Ages are a testimony to the absolute failure imposed on believers when the "church" begins to dictate whatever "truth" it deems necessary to force all members to conform. Not only is Roman Catholocism guilty of this but so are many of the mainline Protestant denominations.
Furthermore, Baptists themselves would do well to avoid the denial of this doctrine. Pastors who overlord their flocks or churches that submit themselves to denominational control will need to return again to the Scriptures concerning this vital historical Bapist distinctive. To demand, whether directly or indirectly, that believers submit to any kind of authoritarian rule is both unscriptural and, in fact, questionable. This generation has seen its Jim Jones's and David Karesh's. Whenever believers give up their individual soul liberty in favor of following the demands of another person or affiliation, they do indeed compromise this essential doctrine of the faith.
- from ALL ABOUT BAPTISTS
Church history verifies that Christians have died for this principle. The teaching that individuals are sovereign in matters of faith is one that Baptists will not compromise.
The individual soul is answerable to Almighty God and to Him alone. This precludes giving up that independency to a pope, a priest, a system, an organization, a convention, a fellowship, an association, or any other human being. None of these are given the authority to interpose anything whatsoever between the individual believer and God concerning any matter of faith.
A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination or to choose no religious belief system and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. Furthermore, a person may change his/her mind at any time.
This doctrine springs from the many examples in church history where the independency of the believer was stifled and sometimes even forbidden. Under the rule of Constantine, Roman law demanded that all people in the Roman Empire become Christians. The result of this law was forcing Christianity upon the masses by infant baptism and a meaningless profession by adults. Accordingly, the Dark Ages are a testimony to the absolute failure imposed on believers when the "church" begins to dictate whatever "truth" it deems necessary to force all members to conform. Not only is Roman Catholocism guilty of this but so are many of the mainline Protestant denominations.
Furthermore, Baptists themselves would do well to avoid the denial of this doctrine. Pastors who overlord their flocks or churches that submit themselves to denominational control will need to return again to the Scriptures concerning this vital historical Bapist distinctive. To demand, whether directly or indirectly, that believers submit to any kind of authoritarian rule is both unscriptural and, in fact, questionable. This generation has seen its Jim Jones's and David Karesh's. Whenever believers give up their individual soul liberty in favor of following the demands of another person or affiliation, they do indeed compromise this essential doctrine of the faith.
- from ALL ABOUT BAPTISTS
atpollard
Well-Known Member
William Lane Craig raised an interesting philosophical question in the OP video. Where DOES the “WILL” come from … the “nature” or the “person”?
Setting Jesus aside for just a moment, let’s start by asking about US (people). Paul (in Romans) talks about a war raging inside of himself where SOMETHING desires to do the very things that HE does not desire to do. Do we have a SIN nature and a GOD nature (there are probably better terms, I am groping with semantics here)? If WILL comes from our nature, and we DO have two natures at war within us, do we have two WILLS? As Paul would say “the things I want to do” and “the things that I do that I don’t want to do”.
If the WILL comes from the PERSON, then I am only one person (fully human, just for the record ) … and I have one WILL that struggles with two natures (the OLD and NEW man).
We should really understand ourselves before we attempt to understand Christ as “TOTALLY God and TOTALLY man”.
[I am mostly just thinking out loud.]
Setting Jesus aside for just a moment, let’s start by asking about US (people). Paul (in Romans) talks about a war raging inside of himself where SOMETHING desires to do the very things that HE does not desire to do. Do we have a SIN nature and a GOD nature (there are probably better terms, I am groping with semantics here)? If WILL comes from our nature, and we DO have two natures at war within us, do we have two WILLS? As Paul would say “the things I want to do” and “the things that I do that I don’t want to do”.
If the WILL comes from the PERSON, then I am only one person (fully human, just for the record
) … and I have one WILL that struggles with two natures (the OLD and NEW man).We should really understand ourselves before we attempt to understand Christ as “TOTALLY God and TOTALLY man”.
[I am mostly just thinking out loud.]
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
William Lane Craig raised an interesting philosophical question in the OP video. Where DOES the “WILL” come from … the “nature” or the “person”?
Setting Jesus aside for just a moment, let’s start by asking about US (people). Paul (in Romans) talks about a war raging inside of himself where SOMETHING desires to do the very things that HE does not desire to do. Do we have a SIN nature and a GOD nature (there are probably better terms, I am groping with semantics here)? If WILL comes from our nature, and we DO have two natures at war within us, do we have two WILLS? As Paul would say “the things I want to do” and “the things that I do that I don’t want to do”.
If the WILL comes from the PERSON, then I am only one person (fully human, just for the record
We should really understand ourselves before we attempt to understand Christ as “TOTALLY God and TOTALLY man”.
[I am mostly just thinking out loud.]
Jesus Christ post Incarnation has TWO Natures, the Divine and the Human, in totality, with the exception of any sin attached to His Human Nature, which He actually derived from the Virgin Mary, thereby become Consubstantial with us.
As Almighty God, Jesus always has a Divine Will.
For His "Human Nature" to be complete and real, like ours, He would have to have had the "human will"
As I have already said, this was a huge Christological problem in the early Church, when Monothelitism was condemned as heresy, and Dyothelitism accepted as what the Bible Teaches
There is zero doubt in my mind that this as defined in the early Church is the ONLY Teaching of the Bible, and cannot be refuted!