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Do You Agree with this ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brudford, Oct 27, 2024 at 1:16 PM.

  1. Brudford

    Brudford New Member

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    " The reformation brought us back to the Bible and not the doctrine of a particular church or Pope that gone astray. "



    I have been studying the Christian Reformation lately and having married into a Catholic family was always amazed
    that the average Catholic that at least I knew had very little knowledge of scripture . Being raised a Southern Baptist it was expected that we studied scripture .
     
  2. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Member

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    Look at the RCC history, it's a history of keeping the people from their own study of Scripture. It's only the Pope and the leaders of RCC that can interpret Scripture.

    That's how they kept the people under control for centuries. When the Reformation came, how dare these men interpret Scripture differently than tradition.

    And here we are, out of the dark control of the wisdom and traditions of men in The RCC.

    They weren't perfect, but thank God for Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. who had the courage to stand up with their lives on the line to point us back to Christ!
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, I don't agree.

    I agree that the Reformation brought us closer to the Bible on several foundational issues, but I agree with the baptistic churches that existed outside of the Roman Catholic Church that the Reformers did not go far enough.

    The doctrine of the Reformation addressed important Roman Catholic heresies, but they did not bring is back to the Bible. A lot of Roman Catholic doctrines remain. A lot of Roman Catholic doctrines were simply reformed.

    The primary concerns included justification based on a human response (works or faith), the nature of Communion, the focus on Atonement, and the hierarchy of the church.

    It would have been better if the Reformation sought a return to Scripture rather than reforming existing Catholic traditions.

    As an example:

    1. The Reformers either kept the existing RCC Atonement view (Luther) or reformed that doctrine by shifting the criteria (Calvin).

    2. The Reformers maintained the RCC structure but removed the Pope (assumed a position closer to the Catholic Church prior to Roman supremacy).


    But given that the Reformers were Roman Cathokic and reforming from within that tradition, I think that the step closer was probably the best they could do at the time. We have to remember that RCC doctrine was ingrained into the Reformers and they addressed what struck them as unbiblical from within the Catholic faith.

    Luther, for example, initially saw abuses in indulgences. This lead him to see other heresies. But he was blind to other problems (like RCC Atonement, which is important but not something Luther himself changed or took a hard position about).

    Each Reformer saw and addressed what they saw. But they did not go so far as to get back to the Bible.


    Even Baptists have this issue. Baptists developed doctrine from both the Reformers (maintaining a RCC flavor on some issues) and Anabaptist views (the "Radical Reformation") are indebted to both movements. But most Baptists have not returned to Scripture in all doctrines (we typically hold a reformed RCC understanding of Atonement, we struggle with ecclesiological issues, etc.).
     
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  4. ChristB4Us

    ChristB4Us Member

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    I do not agree that the Reformation brought the Protestants back to the Bible when Hebrews 10:1-31 rebukes the practice of the Mass for believing the lie that there is need to receive the atonement for sins since last Mass by Christ offering that one time sacrifice for sins again at the Mass.

    Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:

    The fact that the forever indwelling Holy Spirit is in the believers is why there is no more sacrifice for sins.

    Plus the Protestants as well as the Catholics also believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine and that they are receiving "spiritual benefits" when partaking of the "sacraments" of "holy" communion which is committing idolatry.

    1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

    The reformation needs to continue by dropping the term "sacraments" and "holy" from communion but you would think the Baptist churches would be seeking to evangelize those astray and not just sinners.... which leads me to think about Alberto Rivera, a former Jesuit, that had testified of that secret oath to the Jesuit General at the Vatican to cause chaos in society so that society may collapse and to infiltrate the Protestant churches to bringing them back to the fold of the RCC.... that maybe Jesuits have infiltrated the Baptist churches to prevent them from doing so by having false teachings & condemnations within.
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Broadly, I do agree. The Reformers desired to bring the churches back to the word of God. However, it was impossible (humanly speaking) that perfection should break forth at once, and while we may marvel that Calvin should produce such a great work as the Institutes so quickly after the Reformation started, he did not by any means find all truth. But the Reformers had a saying: Ecclesia Reformata semper Reformanda. The reformed church is always in need of reformation.
    This is wonderfully expressed by John Robinson, the leader of the Pilgrim Fathers when they were in Holland:

    ‘We are now ere long to part asunder, and the Lord knows whether ever we shall live to see one another’s faces. But whether the Lord has appointed it or not, I charge you before God and His blessed angels, follow me no further than I follow Christ; and if God shall reveal anything to you by any other instrument of His, be as ready to receive it as ever you were to receive any truth by my ministry. For I am confident the Lord has more truth and light to break forth from His holy word. I bewail the state and condition of the Reformed churches, who have come to a full-stop in religion, and will go no further than the instrument of their reformation. The Lutherans cannot be drawn beyond what Luther saw; the Calvinists, they stick where Calvin left them. This is a misery much to be lamented; for though they were shining lights in their times, yet God did not reveal His whole will unto them, and if they were alive today they would be as ready to and willing to embrase further light, as that they had received. Keep in mind our church covenant, our promise and covenant with God and one another, to receive whatsoever light or truth shall be made known to us from His written word. But take heed what you receive for truth- examine it well and compare and weigh it with other Scriptures of truth before you receive it. It is not possible that the Christian world should so lately come out of such thick anti-Christian darkness, and that the perfection of knowledge should break forth at once. ‘

    Some years ago, I made some blog posts about the role of ordinary people in the REformation. I had intended to turn then into a book, but life got in the way and I never finished. But here is where I got to if you are interested:

    The People’s Reformation (1) Setting the Scene
    The People’s Reformation (2)
    The People’s Reformation (3). Medieval Christianity, Part 2
    The People’s Reformation, Part 4. Wyclif and the early Lollards

    2026 is the 500th anniversary of the publication of William Tyndale's English translation of the New Testament. Tyndale gave his life for it and the effect was earth-shattering. For the first time English men and women could read the word of God in their own language. I am hoping to retire shortly from my position as an elder in my church, and spend 2025 writing more blog posts and bringing the story to some sort of conclusion.
     
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