Continuation - The Church Without The Pre-Trib Rapture Is Not Good News

[JD731]

My rapture thread was closed before I could provide a defense for a very important point that was raised by Alan D. Gross. It is as follows.

"I do not know of any evidence that there has ever been ONE premillennialist, or ONE premillennial dispensationalist, or ONE postmillennialist
who can produce ONE Scripture in support of their Method of Interpreting the Prophecies of The End Times
and I do not believe any evidence exists."

Thank you Alan for providing an opportunity to defend sound doctrine and in the process convince others of this important doctrine of the pre-trib rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.

Those who oppose this hope of the church of Jesus Christ do so because they are not willing to accept that God in his providential working in his unfolding plan of redemption is doing so in time, as it, time, unfolds and as he changes his methods and manners of dealing with man when necessity requires it because of the wickedness and rebellion of man on the earth. Dispensationalists such as I refer to the changes in dispensations and God changing his operative principle of divine dealing with men on the earth. In this age, for instance, God is dealing with humanity by the common principle to all men as the dispensation of the grace of God. This does not mean that God only exercises the principle of grace in this age, because he is aways a gracious God, but through this principle particularly he is accomplishing a specific purpose in redeeming men.

But my first effort is to highlight how you men who deny the church of Jesus Christ with it's mystery formation and its unique promises and heavenly calling do so because you violate the principles of the English language and will not manage your doctrines according to its rules.

But, before I do that I would like to make a point about the rules God has laid down for the prophet of God whom he has also called a seer. A seer is someone who has been given the ability to see things beyond the present. That would be the future things that have not happened at the time they were given to him.

So, here are the rules for a prophet who sees things. There is no words in the scriptures that changes these rules.

14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Now John was the last seer in the scriptures and I am going to show in future posts how he prophesied of things from his time in Revelation in AD 94 when he wrote it that had never come to pass and still hasn't. Jesus Christ, who is the word of God, Elohim Jehovah, gave these things to John to write and so if there is no evidence they ever came to pass according to the rules of a prophet in Deut 18, then they surely will or else John is a false prophet.

I will show later how John was told to write things according to 3 different time periods, all within the Lord's day.

Acts 322 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. (that prophet is Jesus Christ)

 

[Dave G]

this important doctrine of the pre-trib rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.

JD,
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 lay out the timing. If you see any evidence of His coming before the tribulation ( when He very pointedly says "after the tribulation of those days shall..." ), then I think you're reading into the Scriptures something that is not there.

These passages clearly tell us when He will send forth His angels to gather His elect... after, not before:


" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 ).

" But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." ( Mark 13:24-27 ).


Read it again, please.

 

[JD731]

Let's take a look at the revelation now and draw some conclusions as concerning time.

John's Introduction to the epistle.

) It is a revelation of Jesus Christ not known before Re 1:1
) It was given to John Re 1:1
) John recorded three (3) things
1) The word of God
) The testimony of Jesus Christ
) All things that he saw Re 1:2
) It is a prophecy Re 1:3
) A blessing goes threefold
) to those who read it
) To those who hear the words of the prophecy
) To those who keep the things written in the prophecy
________________________

It must be noted first that John is not writing this epistle to the church of Jesus Christ even as he includes information to seven churches in Asia. Asia is a province in the area we now know as Turkey and where a great number of Abraham's physical seed, the ten tribes of Israel who were dispersed in 722 BC by the Assyrians because of their sins against God lived at the time. During the days of the Jewish apostles who ministered there these people were called upon to repent and trust Jesus Christ and to be born again, but they did not.

Who is the prophecy addressed to in the introduction? It is addressed to God's servants. Re 1:1 Those in the church are sons of God through a new birth and heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. They are not servants as we will see in V6 of the chapter.

I Re 1:4 John begins to address his words specifically to the seven churches that are presently in Asia as he writes this prophecy. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: I am going to be leaving wonderful things out and just addressing things that are pertinent for my goal of persuading others of the truthfulness of the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He begins in Re 1:4 with some very important historical information.
) There is grace and peace to the seven churches
) The word grace appears twice in the Revelation - the next is in Re 22:21
) John is a brother and companion in tribulation with those in these churches
) he is also a king and priest unto God and his Father indicating the relationship as a son of God Re 1:6&9
) he was in the Isle of Patmos Re 1:9
) He was in the Spirit on the Lord's day - This is what we have learned is the day of the Lord. Re 1:10
) This instructs us that no judgement of God can happen under grace as his operative principle of divine dealing (Scriptures says judgement is God's strange work. Isa 28:21)
) This day begins with the voice of God as the sound of a trumpet. Re 1:10
) The beginning of the judgement of God on earth begins with the second trumpet, which is his last trump Re 4:1 and 1 Cor 15:51
) As Judah failed in the political expression of the kingdom under Christ, these strangers failed in the religious expression of the kingdom. Re 2:1 - 3:22


John was told AFTER the vision of the glorified Christ in Re 1:10-18 how to structure the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Re 1:19 -
Write the things
1) which thou hast seen,
2 )and the things which are,
3) and the things which shall be hereafter;

Past, present, and future.

) John had jus seen the vision of Christ when he was told this. Comp Re 1:10- Re 1:18
) This is past tense, things he had seen.
) The things that are - the seven churches in Asia - Re 1:4 This is present tense
) The things which shall be hereafter Re 4:1 - this is future tense after the church is gone.

This is things that will be here after the churches. Look at the language and the shift of the place of John from Patmos to heaven. This is the rapture of the church.

Re 4:1 After this (after he wrote to the churches) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is the last trump to the church on earth. The church is not mentioned on earth again until the end of the prophecy.

This is a clear reference in time to the rapture of the church. It is the word of God and the testimony of the biblical Jesus. None of the prophecies that are future to the church on earth has transpired from Re 4:1 onward at this date 3/18/25.

 

[JD731]

JD,
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 lay out the timing. If you see any evidence of His coming before the tribulation ( when He very pointedly says "after the tribulation of those days shall..." ), then I think you're reading into the Scriptures something that is not there.

These passages clearly tell us when He will send forth His angels to gather His elect... after, not before:


" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 ).

" But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." ( Mark 13:24-27 ).


Read it again, please.

There is no excuse for anyone who is a Christian in this period of history, with the indwelling Spirit of Christ to teach us, to be unable to understand the times we are living in. We have the prophecies of the OT scriptures and the full and complete NT scriptures and we have 6K years of human history to compare to determine if these prophecies have come to pass. The rules given of the prophets who gave these words have long since passed away with many of their prophecies unfulfilled at this very day. Jesus Christ, a prophet of God like unto Moses while on the earth uttered things concerning the nation and people that he birthed (Israel is my son even my firstborn Ex 4:22) that have not yet come to pass.

For some reason you Reformed people have made a common doctrine among your various ecclesiastical divisions that the family of Jacob, named "Israel" by God, that the national and ethical and spiritual promises of God made particularly to them, have been rendered null and void by an overcoming force called "the church."

The purpose of the Zionist movement is to bring Israel back into the conversation of the nations and, through the great tribulation, to bring his firstborn son to the new birth when every person left alive on earth whose linage goes back to Abraham will be saved and included in this nation.

When Jesus spoke to a Jewish ruler in John 3, he said except a man (the firstborn of God - Israel) be born again , he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. He was speaking collectively.

The following quote is Paul speaking to gentiles about Israel, who, during the time Paul was writing this (58 AD) were blind to the truths of God about his mystery of forming his church from the inclusion of gentiles during this age of their unbelief - (Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office):

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

You misrepresent the ministry of Jesus by not accepting that he said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel in his earthly ministry. He spoke to Israel, not gentiles. The church is gentile in character.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house (family) of Israel.

Context is our friend.

 

[Dave G]

There is no excuse for anyone who is a Christian in this period of history, with the indwelling Spirit of Christ to teach us, to be unable to understand the times we are living in.

I agree...that's why I'd like you to read it again, carefully.

For some reason you Reformed people have made a common doctrine among your various ecclesiastical divisions that the family of Jacob, named "Israel" by God, that the national and ethical and spiritual promises of God made particularly to them, have been rendered null and void by an overcoming force called "the church."

I'm not Reformed, and I'm not a "Calvinist".
I'm a Christian.

You misrepresent the ministry of Jesus by not accepting that he said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel in his earthly ministry. He spoke to Israel, not gentiles. The church is gentile in character.

Sir, "the church" is composed of individuals out of every tongue, tribe and nation...
Just as the Bible tells us in Revelation.
Both Jews and Gentiles.

It started with Abel, and will continue being gathered unto the Lord through the preaching of God's word and the calling of the Holy Ghost;
Right up until the very last name written in the Lamb's Book of Life comes to repentance.
That said, please stop teaching people error, JD, and repeating what Darby told his followers and has been popularized within the past 200 years or so.

God's word does not, and never has, taught a "pre-tribulational rapture".

 

[JD731]

I agree...that's why I'd like you to read it again, carefully.

I'm not Reformed, and I'm not a "Calvinist".
I'm a Christian.

Thank you for your willingness to speak on this subject.

What is it in Matt 24 or Mark 13 that you want me to see that causes you to think it establishes the time line for the church?

Sir, "the church" is composed of individuals out of every tongue, tribe and nation...
Just as the Bible tells us in Revelation.
Both Jews and Gentiles.

It started with Abel, and will continue being gathered unto the Lord through the preaching of God's word and the calling of the Holy Ghost;
Right up until the very last name written in the Lamb's Book of Life comes to repentance.
That said, please stop teaching people error, JD, and repeating what Darby told his followers and has been popularized within the past 200 years or so.

As far as I can remember I have never quoted any pre-trib author on these forums to justify what I believe about the scriptures. That is not to say I am not aware of some of the most popular authors who teach a pre-trib rapture. My pastor teaches a pre-trib rapture and that is partly the reason he is my pastor. If he taught anything else I would consider it evidence that he could not rightly divide the word of truth as pastors and elders are commanded by the scriptures to do.

God's word does not, and never has, taught a "pre-tribulational rapture".

This is a great error in your thinking. It is better to say the most popular teachers of the most widely accepted systematic theologies generally do not teach a pre-trib rapture in their man made systems that does not follow the accepted rules of language and often have more than one hermeneutical principle applying, sometimes in the same chapter and verse. There is no consistency in the understanding of God and his ways and the way it is presented to others in most of these systems.

I mentioned your belief system in my last thread that had the church beginning in Ge 5 and one Reformed believer said he has never heard of anyone who believes this. Now he can't say that if he has read your comments.

The scriptures are to be logical and reasonable. God has the right to make transitions in his redemptive plan relative to how it is received by sinners on whom he shines his glorious light, and he has. You must recognize them.

Psalm 119:130
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

 

[Dave G]

What is it in Matt 24 or Mark 13 that you want me to see that causes you to think it establishes the time line for the church?

Reading it, in detail, doesn't cause you to stop short and say, "whoa, horsey"?
Those two passages, to me, state some very important things that happen right before His second coming.

One after the other after the other.

As far as I can remember I have never quoted any pre-trib author on these forums to justify what I believe about the scriptures.

I didn't say you did.
But the similarity between pieces of what you've presented, and what I heard growing up in IB and IFB churches is, for lack of a better term, amazingly close.

Imagine my fascination when I discovered for myself ( years later ) that it was John Nelson Darby who many say is largely responsible for one of the most popular end-times teachings prevalent in Baptist churches for the past 100-150 years...
The "Pre-Tribulational Rapture".

The scriptures are to be logical and reasonable.

No, they are not, JD.
In fact, outside of the enlightenment of the indwelling Holy Spirit, I can say with full confidence that the Scriptures are a maze of contradiction and hyperbole that becomes a logical "ball of yarn" to all who are not saved.
There is nothing "logical and reasonable" about any of it, to the natural man.

In fact, we are told in 1 Corinthians 2 this very thing.

 

[JD731]

Reading it, in detail, doesn't cause you to stop short and say, "whoa, horsey"?
Those two passages, to me, state some very important things that happen right before His second coming.

You are answering me with a question. This does not give me confidence that can make a persuasive argument for your beliefs from these passages.

One after the other after the other.

Unstated so far.

I didn't say you did.
But the similarity between pieces of what you've presented, and what I heard growing up in IB and IFB churches is, for lack of a better term, amazingly close.

A church is neither good or bad, sound doctrinally, or even dispensational just because they have a title of IB or IFB over their door. Sound doctrine comes from the Bible, not the local church, though the local church should be sound doctrinally. Sound doctrine came from those who were charged and equipped to write the scriptures and to teach them to others, not from a pseudo apostle some 1500 years later.

Imagine my fascination when I discovered for myself ( years later ) that it was John Nelson Darby who many say is largely responsible for one of the most popular end-times teachings prevalent in Baptist churches for the past 100-150 years...
The "Pre-Tribulational Rapture".

You know much more about Darby than me. I heard his name a few years ago but have never read anything from his pen. My logic is this: If Darby learned it from the Bible and it is true, then the Bible will teach me, a saved man, the same things without his input.

No, they are not, JD.
In fact, outside of the enlightenment of the indwelling Holy Spirit, I can say with full confidence that the Scriptures are a maze of contradiction and hyperbole that becomes a logical "ball of yarn" to all who are not saved.
There is nothing "logical and reasonable" about any of it, to the natural man.

In fact, we are told in 1 Corinthians 2 this very thing.

There was a time in my life that I was interested in "Christian books" and I visited book stores on my travels. I noticed that almost all the books were written by men who had gained a reputation for their brilliance and were the most scholarly and educated of all preachers or they represented schools and organization they had started and many times named after themselves. I began to understand that these men and their persona and organizations and their scholarly works were at least a portion of the seedbed for the modern end times philosophy that has overshadowed the local church with it's pastors and deacons that is God's idea of how his doctrines could be kept pure and the church united in it's cause. It is by separation of the units from the whole.

You, yourself, have referred to passages that condemns the philosophy that you through your affiliations perpetuate .These men are those who taught you the great error you postulated in the last paragraph of your post You claim the Bible is purposefully a maze of contradictions and hyperbole and a ball of yarn for those who are not saved. The Bible never gives that description of itself but your teachers have convinced you it is true but if you buy their books you can feel saved and they will iron it all out for you.

Second Corinthians 2 says
1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

He goes on to say:
6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

God has written thirteen (13) letters to reveal this mystery which he calls a hidden mystery. This is what cannot be understood of the natural man no matter how many wordily titles are associated with his name and how he is praised for his brilliance. Most of the rest of the Bible can be understood by any man. He has commissioned one man to write about God's mysteries and to reveal them in his letters and make them known. He did not need to hide these truths from false religion under a bushel because their false religion blinded them so they cannot see these things.

No simple person has written any of the scores of new English Bible translations that have appeared in the last 130 years. The scholars have written them all, many times giving the reason that they want to make the Bible easier to understand even after God said what he did in 1 Cor 2.

The mystery pertains to this age only when God is forming his church from both Jews and gentiles and when finished will come for it and God will present it to Jesus Christ as his bride. We have precedence for this kind of conduct from God when he formed Eve from the side of the sleeping Adam and gave her his life and she became his bride.

Here is a passage in the context of the end of the age and what the weakened church will be doing.

2Ti 2:
1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I think this time has come and I have been avoiding the bookstores and hero preachers for several years now.

1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery;

 

[Marooncat79]

There is no excuse for anyone who is a Christian in this period of history, with the indwelling Spirit of Christ to teach us, to be unable to understand the times we are living in. We have the prophecies of the OT scriptures and the full and complete NT scriptures and we have 6K years of human history to compare to determine if these prophecies have come to pass. The rules given of the prophets who gave these words have long since passed away with many of their prophecies unfulfilled at this very day. Jesus Christ, a prophet of God like unto Moses while on the earth uttered things concerning the nation and people that he birthed (Israel is my son even my firstborn Ex 4:22) that have not yet come to pass.

For some reason you Reformed people have made a common doctrine among your various ecclesiastical divisions that the family of Jacob, named "Israel" by God, that the national and ethical and spiritual promises of God made particularly to them, have been rendered null and void by an overcoming force called "the church."

The purpose of the Zionist movement is to bring Israel back into the conversation of the nations and, through the great tribulation, to bring his firstborn son to the new birth when every person left alive on earth whose linage goes back to Abraham will be saved and included in this nation.

When Jesus spoke to a Jewish ruler in John 3, he said except a man (the firstborn of God - Israel) be born again , he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. He was speaking collectively.

The following quote is Paul speaking to gentiles about Israel, who, during the time Paul was writing this (58 AD) were blind to the truths of God about his mystery of forming his church from the inclusion of gentiles during this age of their unbelief - (Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office):

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

You misrepresent the ministry of Jesus by not accepting that he said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel in his earthly ministry. He spoke to Israel, not gentiles. The church is gentile in character.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house (family) of Israel.

Context is our friend.

But Jesus did go and minister to Gentiles

 

[Dave G]

ou are answering me with a question. This does not give me confidence that can make a persuasive argument for your beliefs from these passages.

JD, I'll take one more stab at it.
Please follow along and read carefully:

" And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains:
17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[Dave G]

In the above, I see a whole lot being said, and I've broken it up into sections to help in the reading of it.
I see things that have already happened ( from our point of view ), things that are happening, and things that have not yet happened when I read it in its entirety.

That said, I'll be as brief as possible in my summary, and I'll skip the verse-by-verse to save room.


1) The first thing I see ( beginning at verse 1 ) is that the Lord Jesus goes out of the temple, and His disciple came to Him in order to show Him the buildings of the temple.
He asks them if they see all those things, and then tells them that there shall not be left one stone standing of the buildings of the temple they had just come out of.

2) Apparently while they were talking, He walked as far as the Mount of Olives... which was not far ( if you look at a map of the old city and the topography of the time ) from the temple mount. They then ask Him:

"WHEN are these things going to happen?"

3) The Lord Jesus then begins telling them of future events.
Firstly, He tells them to take heed lest any man try to deceive them. Then He tells them that many shall come in His name, saying that they are Christ... He also adds that they ( the disciples ) shall hear of wars and rumors of wars and not to be troubled ( worried ), but that all these things must come to pass; Despite this, the end is not yet.
Nation shall rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, wars, pestilences and earthquakes in diverse places.
All these things are the beginning of sorrows.

We see this happening now, and it's been happening off and on for many hundreds of years before now.

 

[Dave G]

4) He tells them that they ( His disciples, that's us ) shall be delivered up to be afflicted, and shall be killed. All of us shall be hated by all nations for His sake. Many shall be offended, many false prophets shall arise and deceive many, and the love of many, shall "wax" ( grow ) cold.
I see this happening even now, and getting worse by the year.

5) He that endures to the end, shall be saved. To me, this "enduring" is evidential, not "conditional". I won't go into why I believe this in this thread.
6) This Gospel of the kingdom ( all that He has preached ) shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come.

7) Here's where we come to "Anti-Christ"...notice the timing. Notice that it's before He sends forth His angels to gather His elect in verse 31.
He tells them that when they ( that's us ) see the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet ( please refer to Daniel 9:26-27, and Daniel 11:21-45 for details regarding this person ) let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains, those that are on top of houses not come back into the house to get their things, those that are in the field not return to take clothes, etc.

Because then ( after the abomination of desolation takes place ) shall be great tribulation such as the world has never seen.

 

[Dave G]

Next:

8) Immediately after the tribulation ( and I've bolded the text where these details are contained ), come these things:

A) The sun will be darkened.
B) The moon shall not give her light.
C) ( What we consider to be the stars ) will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
D) ...and then shall appear the sign of the the Lord Jesus ( the Son of Man ) in Heaven.
E) Then shall all the tribes ( nations of men ) of the earth mourn... and they all shall see the Lord Jesus coming in the clouds of Heaven with great power and glory.
F) Here it is;
Immediately after the tribulation:

Then shall He send His angels forth to gather His elect...from the four winds and from every corner of Heaven.
In the parallel passage of Mark 13, He tells us that not only will He gather His elect from the four winds, but "... from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

All of the saved ( those both in Heaven and on earth ) will be gathered ( the "Rapture" ) by the angels, after the tribulation.

 

[Dave G]

To me, what the Lord Jesus tells us about when things are going to happen is developed step by step in both Matthew 24 and Mark 13:

1) Persecution of Christians.
2) The world in a state of increasing upset, famines, wars pestilences etc.
3) The abomination of desolation takes place
4) The tribulation takes place.
5) After the tribulation, the Lord returns, sending His angles to gather His elect from both Heaven and earth.

Where is it that you see this gathering of all the saved happening, in the Scriptures, before the tribulation...when this ( as well as Mark 13 ) tells us that it's after?

So far I haven't seen you show any Scriptures where this level of detail and timing is laid out, step by step, and where it doesn't contradict what is stated here.

 

[JD731]

But Jesus did go and minister to Gentiles

During the years of the OT God had to show what the cost was to redeem sinning men from their sins and restore them to fellowship with him. Sin broke that fellowship and one should think at this point that if God did not desire fellowship with us he would not have created us in the first place.

So God raised up a family from one man, Abraham, in the third millennium of earthly history through which he could establish a relationship based upon a sacrificial system that would provide a visual and that would foreshadow the actual events of his becoming a man and living as one of us, only he would not have sin because his humanity came from Mary and his character came from Jehovah, his Father.

When Jesus first appeared, to his own family, and then to the world he was introduced as "the LAMB of God which taketh away the sin of the world." Through his own family and the perfect written law he gave by which all men are judged and by which Jesus Christ, God's own son will be judged and his power to save affirmed.

God had prepared the world for his coming and for his righteous rule but the additional nature of this man was as the "Lion of the tribe of Judah." This nation that God himself had raised up was to give him the platform for his restitution of all things that was lost through the first Adam's sin. This was to include the dominion of one righteous and sinless man over all the family of Adam being the head of the human race. We call a man with these credentials a king. The world might not have understood this without the visual.

It is imperative for this righteous King to have a righteous citizenship and so after coming to the world and to them and as one of them and after offering himself as their substitute by paying the penalty for their sins by willingly pouring out his own blood and dying each of their deaths in a one time sacrifice that propitiated God for them, he then called on every one of them to repent. Every one of them is in a national sense because they had been born a nation in Egypt by the blood of the lamb on the first Passover.

So then, this family has a three-fold identity keeping with the way of God to stamp his three-fold trinitarian signature on all things he has made. The identity of Israel is ethnical, religious, and national. It is an eternal identity that will never change. The metaphors for these divisions are trees. First the vine tree, (ethnic) the olive tree (religious), and the fig tree (national). In the new Testament

When Judah, his own, rejected him through their rulers of being both the son of God and their prince, the coming King, all three of these trees were very adversely affected. Jesus had taught his disciples in John 15 that HE is the true vine and his Father the husbandman and to be a branch that bears fruit they must be a vine connected to him from whence the life giving Spirit flows. All other branches will be cut off. The Olive Tree was cut down and only the faithful Jews were left attached to the root and later the gentiles tree was grafted against nature into it. Nature has the grafting of a fruit tree into a non fruit tree but this was different.

The fig tree, representing the nation of Israel to whom Jesus came in his own generation (Matt 1:1) and the generation that was tagged to recognize him and to receive him. dried up under his curse during the week of his crucifixion because he went to get fruit from it and there was none on it and he cursed it. This was on a Monday before he was crucified on Friday by his nation. No fear, Jesus said on Tuesday when they see it bring forth leaves know that summer is nigh, even at the door.

Here is a visual of this truth:

Luke 13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 ¶ He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

God gave 40 years to this generation (a generation is 70 years - Ps 90:10) as he did to the first generation for the tree to bear fruit but it was cut down and removed from the vineyard in 70 AD and buried in the graveyard of the gentile nations. Since the temple where God meets with his people was burned to the ground and the city of the great King ravaged by the gentiles and the Jews dispersed into the nations, they became as gentiles unto this day. The church since the days of the apostles has taken on a gentile character and there have been no miracles and signs like have always been associated with the kingdom of Israel. Jesus likewise has been gone from the land but will return to the City and land when Israel returns.

The gathering by the angels in Matt 24 and Mark 13 is a gathering to the land of those Jews who were dispersed by the man of sin and his kingdom. The church is going to see Jesus himself coming for us.

But there has been some greenery showing up on Israel since 1948 and there are signs of life for the nation and the time is at hand when they will be restored. The gentile church meanwhile is nearly full.

Jesus has never ministered to the gentile world in person. I will be back later to show how he has ministered to us.

 

[JD731]

To me, what the Lord Jesus tells us about when things are going to happen is developed step by step in both Matthew 24 and Mark 13:

1) Persecution of Christians.
2) The world in a state of increasing upset, famines, wars pestilences etc.
3) The abomination of desolation takes place
4) The tribulation takes place.
5) After the tribulation, the Lord returns, sending His angles to gather His elect from both Heaven and earth.

Where is it that you see this gathering of all the saved happening, in the Scriptures, before the tribulation...when this ( as well as Mark 13 ) tells us that it's after?

So far I haven't seen you show any Scriptures where this level of detail and timing is laid out, step by step, and where it doesn't contradict what is stated here.

Dave G, there has never been a time when the church has been concerned with a temple. Fleeing to the mountains and seeing the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. why would we in the West pray that we do not have to flee on the sabbath day. When has the church ever kept the sabbath day? The warning is about fleeing from Judea because of an attack against the Jews. The gathering here by the angels is gathering those who fled to the mountains and other nations in order to save themselves. This is those who are still alive when Jesus returns as King and establishes his throne in Jerusalem.

There is not a single word of warning or instruction to the church of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 or Mark 13. Not one. This is a prophecy that will be fulfilled during the day of the Lord when God will pour out his wrath on Israel and the nations of the world. Who taught you to think this way?

 

[37818]

Jesus has never ministered to the gentile world in person.

Matthew 8:5-10.

 

[Dave G]

This is those who are still alive when Jesus returns as King and establishes his throne in Jerusalem.

Yes it is.
Yet, The information is still for all believers, since all those who are alive at that time will see the things the Lord described and be waiting for Him.

There is not a single word of warning or instruction to the church of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 or Mark 13.

Yes, there is.

 

[Dave G]

This is a prophecy that will be fulfilled during the day of the Lord when God will pour out his wrath on Israel and the nations of the world.

His wrath will not be poured out on the saved who are alive in Israel when these events take place.

Who taught you to think this way?

The Lord did.
Who taught you, contrary to what these passages say, that there will be a Pre-trbulational Rapture, when these explicitly state that the angels will gather together His elect after the Tribulation?

Please read Matthew 24:29-31 again and note the timing, sir.

 

[JD731]

Jesus has never ministered to the gentile world in person.

Matthew 8:5-10.

My statement is true, 37818. Jesus ministered to ONE gentile who was a ruler and was seeking him. He was not there seeking gentiles. The timing of this action is very symbolic. It was in chapter 8 and immediately after Jesus came down from the mountain where for three chapters he expounded the one sermon we call the sermon on the mount. In that sermon he established the character of his kingdom when it is finally set up when he becomes King. The gentile nations will be included in his kingdom but in that day he will not need to be physically present in order to heal the gentiles and to bless them. He is not physically present among us gentiles now and yet he can and does save our souls and answers prayers.

There were 7 chapters before we meet this gentile centurion and after he came down from the mountain, indicating that in the economy of God it will be after the resurrection of Jesus Christ that gentiles will be blessed. Jesus rose from the dead on the 8th day, the day after the sabbath. The number seven (7) stands for complete things. The number 8 stands for new things. The Bible records the mind of God and he never misses the opportunity to incorporate his thinking into a narrative by the words he uses and the timing and the numbers he associates with events. This book is a spiritual book and God is a Spirit. You will not be able to grasp any of these things if you are not Spiritual. They will be foolishness to you.

I hope you will believe the words. They speak sense to us.