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"All"

Charlie24

Active Member
Yup.


Nope.

"Yet I [GOD] have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." - 1 Kings 19:18 [NKJV]

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' - Matthew 7:21-23 [NKJV]

Posers don’t count. Goats are not sheep. Tares are not wheat. (No matter how similar they might look for a season.)

As for Jesus, John 6:44 affirms that those the Father draws, the Son raises on the last day (no exceptions).

Heb. 3:12

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

You can't depart from something you weren't a part of.

People fall back on God in many ways, and every time it's their faith in Christ goes to something else.

That's why we are warned we must hold on to the faith to the end.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
 

Charlie24

Active Member
Heb. 3:12

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

You can't depart from something you weren't a part of.

People fall back on God in many ways, and every time it's their faith in Christ goes to something else.

That's why we are warned we must hold on to the faith to the end.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Even though Calvin got it wrong, I still agree with Spurgeon, especially on my part, that Calvin will be so close to the Throne of God that I won't be able see him. It's not about the doctrine, it's about the faith that produces works for God.

And Calvin had it going on!
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Heb. 3:12

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

You can't depart from something you weren't a part of.

People fall back on God in many ways, and every time it's their faith in Christ goes to something else.

That's why we are warned we must hold on to the faith to the end.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
Then what do we do with all the promises that are “lies”?

The Holy Spirit “guarantees” nothing? (As just one example.)

That bothers me far more than the fact that God offers warnings to keep saints moving towards a goal that God guarantees.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
Then what do we do with all the promises that are “lies”?

The Holy Spirit “guarantees” nothing? (As just one example.)

That bothers me far more than the fact that God offers warnings to keep saints moving towards a goal that God guarantees.

You have the responsibility to keep a relationship with God/Christ to keep from falling away.

That is the condition of salvation, faith in Christ and nothing else is what got you saved and keeps you saved.

It's all about free will which you will not accept. But you better watch yourself, that sin nature that is constantly pulling you away from God.

It's your relationship with Christ that keeps your mind clear and aware when you begin to drift.

Praying and speaking to God, reading your Bible and letting Him speak to you, constantly replacing the old habit with the new in Christ.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Yup.


Nope.

"Yet I [GOD] have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." - 1 Kings 19:18 [NKJV]

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' - Matthew 7:21-23 [NKJV]

Posers don’t count. Goats are not sheep. Tares are not wheat. (No matter how similar they might look for a season.)

As for Jesus, John 6:44 affirms that those the Father draws, the Son raises on the last day (no exceptions).

Just another example of you not understanding what the bible says.

You really should get your head out of that C/R view and just trust what the bible says.

You have trusted in the DoG/TULIP and because of that you have missed the truth of scripture.

God draws all people through the various means that He has provided. But you seem to think He has only one way, to drag people to Him whether they want to come or not. The fact your view is at odds with scripture does not seem to matter to you.

Why those of the C/R view are so fixated on goats is rather odd.

The only time that goats are mentioned in the NT in regard to salvation in at the final judgement [Mat 25:32] and then it is too late to make any difference. The same with the wheat and tares.

But we know that God the Father desires all to be saved and Christ will draw all people and the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world so we see all three are working to save people.

That's why we have the gospel and anyone can hear and respond to it with faith but you do not accept that as that would throw a wrench into your DoG/TULIP philosophy.

Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

As John said
Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

So you see anyone can respond in a positive way the the drawing of God or they can reject that drawing, it is up to the person. That is just them exercising their God given free will.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
The same with the wheat and tares.
You do understand the lesson of the Wheat and Tares, right. That a wheat sprout and a tare sprout both look very similar and it is only when they mature that the true nature that was always in the plant is revealed. You do know that a wheat seed will only grow into a wheat plant and a tare seed will only grow into a tare plant. There is no CHOICE made by the plant to become a wheat or a tare and there is no falling from wheat and becoming a tare (or transforming a tare into a wheat). In this life, they will often LOOK alike, but they will reveal their true nature with time and GOD will ultimately sort them out.

The question is not “why do I fixate on the wheat and tares”, but rather, the question is “why do you ignore the lesson”?
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
But we know that God the Father desires all to be saved
If that is from Peter, then God desires “all of His beloved” to be saved, and THAT is why Jesus delays his return (to give people like you and me a chance to be born 2000 years later). It does not say that God desires all without exception to be saved (or God would have enacted a salvation plan of UNIVERSALISM).
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
You do understand the lesson of the Wheat and Tares, right. That a wheat sprout and a tare sprout both look very similar and it is only when they mature that the true nature that was always in the plant is revealed. You do know that a wheat seed will only grow into a wheat plant and a tare seed will only grow into a tare plant. There is no CHOICE made by the plant to become a wheat or a tare and there is no falling from wheat and becoming a tare (or transforming a tare into a wheat). In this life, they will often LOOK alike, but they will reveal their true nature with time and GOD will ultimately sort them out.

The question is not “why do I fixate on the wheat and tares”, but rather, the question is “why do you ignore the lesson”?

I do understand the lesson but you have, as usual, run it through the C/R grid first. The wheat are true believers the tares are those that are in the world.

That says nothing about whether a person hearing the gospel can freely trust in the message and turn to Christ or even if those that have trusted in Christ will continue to trust in Him.

What we do know is that those that believe will be with Christ those that do not will be lost.

So my question for you is “why do you ignore the lesson”?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
If that is from Peter, then God desires “all of His beloved” to be saved, and THAT is why Jesus delays his return (to give people like you and me a chance to be born 2000 years later). It does not say that God desires all without exception to be saved (or God would have enacted a salvation plan of UNIVERSALISM).

Do you not know what desires means. It is what God wants to happen but He does not force people to come to Him as your understanding would indicate. He has provided the information but what people do with it is up to them.

So are we to conclude that Paul is advocating for universalism here
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Has the desire of God changed?

God is not willing any should perish. That is not universalism but just God's desire. That is why Christ delays His return. We do not know when the last person to freely trust in Christ will do so but God does.

God before the foundation of the world determined how people would be saved not who would be saved.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
Then what do we do with all the promises that are “lies”?

The Holy Spirit “guarantees” nothing? (As just one example.)

That bothers me far more than the fact that God offers warnings to keep saints moving towards a goal that God guarantees.

Eph. 6:10-13

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Paul is speaking to the born-again, telling them guard themselves against the devil to stand.

If you don't, you will not stand, you will fall.

But since you have no responsibilities in your salvation, you just keep doing what your doing.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
This is all obfuscation, an attempt by way of many words, to obscure the fact that you have no actual solid rebuttal to the presence of the conditional term "if" in Hebrews 3:7 that clearly implies that the hearer has a choice to make - and thus responsibility for that choice………
The offering of a “choice” doesn’t mean the hearer has the ability to make the choice. I understand that you believe that means the person isn’t responsible for rejecting the truth of the gospel, but that is applying secular reasoning to God’s Word.

Jesus told the rich young ruler that if he wanted to get to heaven he should keep the commandments.

We know from scripture that no one is able to keep the OT Law in such a way as to warrant heaven. Did Jesus lie to the RYR? No, of course not.

The entire OT system of laws and sacrifices were given to the Hebrew people as choices to keep these commandments under the penalty of death if they failed.

God knew no one would keep these commandments. He held them accountable for the failure to do so and many are burning in hell because they chose to disobey God’s commandments.

By your logic, that makes God unjust. Like many others, secular reasoning replaces scripture and the human concept of “free will” is lifted above biblical reality of God’s will in the salvation of the elect.

Peace to you
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
But since you have no responsibilities in your salvation, you just keep doing what your doing.
Since you have no assurances from God and maintaining your salvation depends 100% on your efforts ... keep up those salvific works (God is depending on you). ;)
 

Charlie24

Active Member
Since you have no assurances from God and maintaining your salvation depends 100% on your efforts ... keep up those salvific works (God is depending on you). ;)

You have been blinded by false doctrine, my friend.

I will pray for you that the Lord will have mercy and show you the truth.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
You have the responsibility to keep a relationship with God/Christ to keep from falling away.

That is the condition of salvation, faith in Christ and nothing else is what got you saved and keeps you saved.

It's all about free will which you will not accept. But you better watch yourself, that sin nature that is constantly pulling you away from God.

It's your relationship with Christ that keeps your mind clear and aware when you begin to drift.

Praying and speaking to God, reading your Bible and letting Him speak to you, constantly replacing the old habit with the new in Christ.
FYI: I agree with most of this, however it avoids rather than answers my question ...

Then what do we do with all the promises that are “lies”?
The Holy Spirit “guarantees” nothing? (As just one example.) [Ephesians 1:13-14]

That bothers me far more than the fact that God offers warnings to keep saints moving towards a goal that God guarantees.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
You have been blinded by false doctrine, my friend.

I will pray for you that the Lord will have mercy and show you the truth.
Naw ... Just a "tit for tat" (one false accusation based on a caricature of beliefs deserved another).

[I am a Compatibalist and not a Hard Determinist.]
 

Charlie24

Active Member
FYI: I agree with most of this, however it avoids rather than answers my question ...

Then what do we do with all the promises that are “lies”?
The Holy Spirit “guarantees” nothing? (As just one example.)

That bothers me far more than the fact that God offers warnings to keep saints moving towards a goal that God guarantees.

The promises of God are based on a condition.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Matt. 24:13

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
The promises of God are based on a condition.
John 10:25-30 [NLT]
25 Jesus replied, "I have already told you, and you don't believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father's name. 26 But you don't believe me because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father's hand. 30 The Father and I are one."

... So what is the condition in this promise?

Romans 8:1-4 [NLT]
1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

... And what is the condition in this promise?

The "conditions" are found in the faithfulness of God and not in the faithfulness of man ...


Romans 9:15-16 [NLT]
15 For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

[Eph 2:1-10 NLT]
1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else. 4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
John 10:25-30 [NLT]
25 Jesus replied, "I have already told you, and you don't believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father's name. 26 But you don't believe me because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father's hand. 30 The Father and I are one."

... So what is the condition in this promise?

Romans 8:1-4 [NLT]
1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

... And what is the condition in this promise?

The "conditions" are found in the faithfulness of God and not in the faithfulness of man ...


Romans 9:15-16 [NLT]
15 For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

[Eph 2:1-10 NLT]
1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else. 4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Christ came to this earth for one reason, to make it possible for man to be redeemed. He can be and is very much misunderstood.

He didn't explain everything, he left that to Paul, Peter, James, John and a host of others to explain to us the meaning of what He has said and done.

If you don't listen to the wisdom of what God has given them, you will be confused. You will not understand, you will be lead away in false doctrine to your own destruction.
 

Tenchi

Active Member
What if the word "IF" indicates that the speaker was delivering a message to a mixed audience ... some had "ears to hear what the Lord says" and some did not. Like the SOWER in the parable, the seed was cast broadly - so all kinds of soils had a chance - but the seed was destined to produce a harvest in ONLY the GOOD SOIL. That does not indicate that the stony soil had a choice to not be stony or the hard path had the choice about whether the bird (Satan) would snatch it away.
It merely affirms what Paul said:
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:" - Romans 9:6 [KJV]
or as James put it:
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." - James1:22 [KJV]

Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
15 As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”


Why should the writer of Hebrews urge care of his brethren if it is God's decree that fundamentally orders their conduct and thinking, not their being careful? The WofH wrote that it was an "evil, unbelieving heart" that would lead them away from God, not His meticulous ordination of such a heart in them. And so, the (Christian) brethren were to exhort one another daily in an effort to ward off the hardening into sin that unbelief engenders. This is quite an unnecessary thing to do if God has decreed that some should not hear and not believe and that others will. If Calvinism is correct, belief and unbelief are dependent upon God's making the one or the other possible in a person, not any of this stuff the WofH urges of his readers in the quotation above.

But the WofH doesn't stop at indicating that the brethren have personal responsibility for their taking up an "evil, unbelieving heart" and ought to encourage one another to forsake such unbelief. He says, as well, that their "sharing in Christ" is contingent upon their "holding their original confidence firm to the end." This is a very strange thing to say if the WofH understood things as Calvinists do. Surely, the Hebrew Christians would "share in Christ" only if God had ordained that they should. Why, then, predicate their "sharing in Christ" upon their persistence in "holding their confidence firm to the end"?

And its doubly odd that, to Christian brethren (vs. 12) the WofH says "If you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." "If"? To those who had already heard God's voice and been saved? Is God so capricious as to ordain them to be hearers in one instance and saved but to be deaf in another and to "fall away" from Himself? This is what appears to me to be indicated in the passage above, if Calvinism is correct.
 

Tenchi

Active Member
The offering of a “choice” doesn’t mean the hearer has the ability to make the choice. I understand that you believe that means the person isn’t responsible for rejecting the truth of the gospel, but that is applying secular reasoning to God’s Word.

Hebrews 3:7-15
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.’
11 As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest.’”
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
15 As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”


I cannot see, given what the WofH wrote in this passage, that he thought his readers had no capacity to choose to hear and positively respond to his exhortations. And it is to those who have already "heard" that he is writing and warning about unbelief and hardness, which seems to me very suggestive of the fact that the WofH did not think his readers were "locked in" to an over-riding divine ordination.

I don't know how you arrive at your "secular reasoning" remark. The capacity to reason is given to us by God; the laws of logic and principles of sound reasoning are His. When I apply these God-originating laws and principles to Calvinism, the systematic is shown to be contradictory, absurd and highly denigrating toward God.

Jesus told the rich young ruler that if he wanted to get to heaven he should keep the commandments.

We know from scripture that no one is able to keep the OT Law in such a way as to warrant heaven. Did Jesus lie to the RYR? No, of course not.

Jesus was speaking to RyR within the Old Covenant context. He had not yet atoned for sin "once for all," through his sacrifice on the cross making a "new and living way" by which all could come to God for forgiveness, cleansing and reconciliation (See: Hebrews 7-10). And so, Jesus could not advise the young ruler to trust in himself as Savior and Lord, nor could he speak to the young man of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the "second birth." So, no, Jesus was not lying to the RyR; he was speaking to the RyR within the only covenant that there was between Man and God at the time. It was a law-based covenant that served only to condemn, but had the RyR been able to keep it perfectly, he would have been accepted by God. As Jesus demonstrated to the young man, however, mere external obedience to God's laws was not enough; God looks upon our hearts and doesn't tolerate in them "gods" of selfish desire (eg - material wealth).

God knew no one would keep these commandments. He held them accountable for the failure to do so and many are burning in hell because they chose to disobey God’s commandments.

By your logic, that makes God unjust. Like many others, secular reasoning replaces scripture and the human concept of “free will” is lifted above biblical reality of God’s will in the salvation of the elect.

Was there not the Old Covenant system of atoning sacrifice? Yes, there was. So, the inability of His Chosen People to keep His commandments was accounted for by God, a way to maintain good relations with Him through animal sacrifice instituted by Him. If they chose not to avail themselves of this method of dealing with their sin, that was on them, not God. So, no, I don't think God unjust, as I read how He acted in the OT.

I think God would be unjust if, as Calvinism asserts, God decrees the basic desires of every person and then, when they make choices in expression of the desires He's given them, He makes them responsible for their choices. Thinking this Calvinist idea of God's "justice" very perverse isn't a challenge to God's sovereignty, but to the ugliness of Calvinism's theistic determinism.

God no more needs to order every facet of His creatures' lives in order to be sovereign than a chess master needs to order every move of his opponent in order to win the match. It is a very poor chess master who can only win when he controls everything on the chess board and it is a very weak God who must control everything in Creation in order to see His will done. This isn't "secular reasoning" but the obvious conclusion of anyone who hasn't thoroughly imbibed the "Kool-Aid" of Calvinist thought.
 
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