We are getting closer! When Jesus sends people away saying depart from me, I never at any time knew you. Does he will to do that?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is the Doctrine of Original Sin Biblical?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But the father is judged for his sin not theirs. His lifestyle may have fostered theirs but he will not be held responsible for the sins they commit.
Careful there @Reynolds as according to the C/R view God determines all things so He is the direct cause of all the sin we see in the world.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is a classic miss reading of that text.
Were we in Christ before creation? Compare 2Co_5:17-21
2Co_5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. ....
2Co_5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Your unconditional election view [elect B4 the foundation of the world] leads to some serious problems that you seem to conveniently overlook.
If God unconditionally chooses who will be saved, based on nothing to do with the individuals themselves, then it is unavoidably true that he also unconditionally chooses who will be damned, based on nothing to do with the individuals themselves.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Close but no cigar. The atonement did not save anyone. It made salvation possible for all. If a person does not trust in Christ then they will not be saved.
1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Those that trust in the risen Christ will be saved.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
If He is still in the tomb, He cannot be an object of faith. Faith must have the risen Christ! Further the redemptive work that began on the cross was completed in the resurrection and ascension.
I don’t see that original sin is passed on from generation to generation. I see that the curse is passed from generation to generation because all have individual sin being made after the likeness of sinful man. The original sin was committed by Adam and there are some people who have not sinned the same way as Adam (Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.)
We don’t have original sin. We have an inherited sin nature. Adam is guilty of his sin.
This doesn’t mean any are guiltless. It means everyone has personal responsibility.
Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Are you trying to tell me that God willed that Jerusalem not come to Him so that Jesus could make this statement?
I don’t understand the purpose of this question. Jesus said he will judge the unrighteous. This has nothing to do with willing people to be unrighteous.
Everything that God wills doesn’t have to happen.
Opps, we differ on this. I think it was an actual salvation, not potential. The atonement did not "save" everyone. it did save all it was intended to save.
The free offer of the gospel is for all, but as in Jn 3:15,16...only everyone believing will be saved. Those who remain in their unsaved condition have no atonement, they are not covered by the blood.
Yes, we agree on this. an unbeliever will not be saved.
Anyone in the world who believes by a God given faith will be saved, yes, will be saved. The words [ the words 'the sins of"]are not in the text.
Yes, we agree on this!
Yes, another point we agree on!
Exactly right!
Yes, for sure,
I know what you mean here Ben. God indeed would be delighted if people wanted to obey all His commands. That is not in question.
because of sin and spiritual death, that is not what happens, we agree on that. I did not say that God wills people to sin. I was speaking about at the White throne judgment, God will be very willing that multitudes perish.
They are added in the KJV for clarity of reading. (Another great reason for the use of the KJV is that words that are added to maintain or convey a proper sense are given in italics and easily recognized)
But to say the words are not there is to ignore them as they are the words used earlier in the text. No no meaning has been added here.
Ben, Have you noticed the times that Jesus wept, in the gospels? This passage shows why...and ye would not!
I have come to understand that every event in life, if it comes to pass, was ordained by God.
Like this; Isa. 46:
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Have you studied much on the providence of God Ben? How would you describe the providence of God?
Well yes . however in terms of linking "the sins of", with the word propitiation, it cannot be that everyone's sins, have been propitiated, but rather the idea is...anyone in the world who comes to Jesus, they also will have the wrath of God taken away by our Lord.
I too much Calvinism is warping the definition of “willing.” It has become the catalyst to say that God created people who he intended to destroy.
The mercy of God and the grace of God is not glorified when everyone is predetermined to do something. Fatalism isn’t grace. God’s goodness is magnified because it is offered over and over to people who need God to change. God is willing to change them, but instead of accepting the salvation He offers, the spit in His face. And still, salvation is offered to them.
When the unbelievers, who have chosen their own way and rejected God, run out of accepted time, then God will judge. The ability of God to know who will believe does not affect the ability of man to recognize their need to be reconciled to God.
He does will punishment on the unrighteous. He does not choose who will be unrighteous. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The mercy of God and the grace of God is not glorified when everyone is predetermined to do something. Fatalism isn’t grace. God’s goodness is magnified because it is offered over and over to people who need God to change. God is willing to change them, but instead of accepting the salvation He offers, the spit in His face. And still, salvation is offered to them.
When the unbelievers, who have chosen their own way and rejected God, run out of accepted time, then God will judge. The ability of God to know who will believe does not affect the ability of man to recognize their need to be reconciled to God.
He does will punishment on the unrighteous. He does not choose who will be unrighteous. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
It is everyone’s sins. “ALL should come to repentance.” And the best part is that is what He wills.
Explain how you just explained it by quoting the same text again. I didn’t follow what you were thinking when you said the same thing I did. (Ye would not)
I don’t mean that everyone will be saved.
(There is a real Hell prepared for the devil and his angels. There will be people who are given the same judgment of hell.) I do mean that if everyone turned to Christ, everyone would be saved. Also Everyone is called. “Look unto me and be ye saved, all ye ends of the earth.”
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
These are 6 audios covering quite a bit about what Theologians who hold to The Eternal Doctrines of Grace call, "Total Depravity", by which is meant the Total, Absolute, Complete, and Utter Incapability of any Natural Born Human Being to Possess a Moral Nature which is Possible of Relating to God Who is Spirit.
All Human Beings are Naturally Born FLESH, 'that which is born of flesh is flesh" and "flesh profits nothing".All Human Beings are told, "You Must Be Born Again".
No Human Being has aspired to 'birth themselves', to date.
A.W. Pink - The Total Depravity of Man (1/6)
A. W. Pink - The Total Depravity of Man (2/6)
A. W. Pink - The Total Depravity of Man (3/6)
A. W. Pink - The Total Depravity of Man (4/6)
A. W. Pink - The Total Depravity of Man (5/6)
A. W. Pink - The Total Depravity of Man (6/6)
Then, this is the written reference version, along with the Table of Contents and some of the initial Introduction in the next post.
We would do well to have an appreciation and well-judged, well-versed understanding of this vital Revelation from God, to the extent that we are Worth Our Weight in Gold, with it becoming an indepensiable portion of our personal Doctrine.
Just take a glimpse at how extremely enormous this one subject matter really is
and try to give it the attention to minute details that it deserves.
The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink.
Also Available in Kindle .mobi and ePub formats
Table of Contents:
Chapter 1 - Introduction to The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 2 - Origin of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 3 - Imputation of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 4 - Consequences of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 5 - Transmission of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 6 - Nature of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 7 - Impact of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 8 - Enormity of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 9 - Extent of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 10 - Ramifications of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 11 - Evidences of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 12 - Corollaries of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 13 - Remedy of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Chapter 14 - Summary of The Total Depravity of man's soul.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Chapter 1. - Introduction
"The subject which this chapter is designed to introduce is likely to meet with a decidedly mixed reception. Some readers will probably be very disappointed when they see the title of this book, considering the subject quite unattractive and unedifying. If so, they are to be pitied; we hope that God will bless the contents to them. Medicine is proverbially unpleasant, but there are times when all of us find it necessary and beneficial.
"Others will be thankful that, by divine grace, we seek to glorify God rather than please the flesh. And surely that which most glorifies God is to declare "all his counsel," to insist on that which puts man in his proper place before Him, and to emphasize those portions and aspects of the truth which our generation is most in need of. As we shall endeavor to show, our theme is one of immense doctrinal importance and of great practical value. Since it is a subject which occupies
A Vital Contemporary Question:
"It is our deep conviction that the vital question most requiring to be raised today is this: Is man a totally and thoroughly depraved creature by nature? Does he enter the world completely ruined and helpless, spiritually blind and dead in trespasses and sins? According as is our answer to that question, so will be our views on many others. It is on the basis of this dark background that the whole Bible proceeds. Any attempt to modify or abate, repudiate or tone down the teaching of Scripture on the matter is fatal.
Alan's Note: And quite possibly = Eternally Fatal.
"Put the question in another form: Is man now in such a condition that he cannot be saved without the special and direct intervention of the triune God on his behalf? In other words, is there any hope for him apart from his personal election by the Father, his particular redemption by the Son, and the supernatural operations of the Spirit within him? Or, putting it in still another way: If man is a totally depraved being, can he possibly take the first step in the matter of his return to God?
The Scriptural Answer:
"The scriptural answer to that question makes evident the utter futility of the schemes of social reformers for "the moral elevation of the masses," the plans of politicians for the peace of the nations, and the ideologies of dreamers to usher in a golden age for this world. It is both pathetic and tragic to see many of our greatest men putting their faith in such chimeras. Divisions and discords, hatred and bloodshed, cannot be banished while human nature is what it is.
"But during the past century the steady trend of a deteriorating Christendom has been to underrate the evil of sin and overrate the moral capabilities of men. Instead of proclaiming the heinousness of sin, there has been a dwelling more upon its inconveniences, and the abasing portrayal of the lost condition of man as set forth in Holy Writ has been obscured if not obliterated by flattering disquisitions on human advancement.
"If the popular religion of the churches—including nine-tenths of what is termed "evangelical Christianity—be tested at this point, it will be found that it clashes directly with man's fallen, ruined and spiritually dead condition.
"There is therefore a crying need today for sin to be viewed in the light of God's law and gospel, so that its exceeding sinfulness may be demonstrated, and the dark depths of human depravity exposed by the teaching of Holy Writ, that we may learn what is connoted by those fearful words "dead in trespasses and sins."
"The grand object of the Bible is to make God known to us, to portray man as he appears in the eyes of his Maker, and to show the relation of one to the other. It is therefore the business of His servants not only to declare the divine character and perfections, but also to delineate the original condition and apostasy of man, as well as the divine remedy for his ruin.
"Until we really behold the Horror of the Pit in which by Nature we lie, we can never properly appreciate Christ's So-Great Salvation.*
"In man's fallen condition we have the awful disease for which divine redemption is the only cure, and our estimation and valuation of the provisions of divine grace will necessarily be modified in proportion as we modify the need it was meant to meet..."
*Alan's Note: You Must Know How Lost Your soul is, Before You Can Be Saved,
is an often stated Truth, which relates to our vital knowledge we need to understand about our own personal soul, TO GENUINELY DESIRE JESUS AS OUR SAVIOR, WHEN WE HAVE GAINED THE ASSURANCE THAT WITH MAN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
"The subject which this chapter is designed to introduce is likely to meet with a decidedly mixed reception. Some readers will probably be very disappointed when they see the title of this book, considering the subject quite unattractive and unedifying. If so, they are to be pitied; we hope that God will bless the contents to them. Medicine is proverbially unpleasant, but there are times when all of us find it necessary and beneficial.
"Others will be thankful that, by divine grace, we seek to glorify God rather than please the flesh. And surely that which most glorifies God is to declare "all his counsel," to insist on that which puts man in his proper place before Him, and to emphasize those portions and aspects of the truth which our generation is most in need of. As we shall endeavor to show, our theme is one of immense doctrinal importance and of great practical value. Since it is a subject which occupies
A Vital Contemporary Question:
"It is our deep conviction that the vital question most requiring to be raised today is this: Is man a totally and thoroughly depraved creature by nature? Does he enter the world completely ruined and helpless, spiritually blind and dead in trespasses and sins? According as is our answer to that question, so will be our views on many others. It is on the basis of this dark background that the whole Bible proceeds. Any attempt to modify or abate, repudiate or tone down the teaching of Scripture on the matter is fatal.
Alan's Note: And quite possibly = Eternally Fatal.
"Put the question in another form: Is man now in such a condition that he cannot be saved without the special and direct intervention of the triune God on his behalf? In other words, is there any hope for him apart from his personal election by the Father, his particular redemption by the Son, and the supernatural operations of the Spirit within him? Or, putting it in still another way: If man is a totally depraved being, can he possibly take the first step in the matter of his return to God?
The Scriptural Answer:
"The scriptural answer to that question makes evident the utter futility of the schemes of social reformers for "the moral elevation of the masses," the plans of politicians for the peace of the nations, and the ideologies of dreamers to usher in a golden age for this world. It is both pathetic and tragic to see many of our greatest men putting their faith in such chimeras. Divisions and discords, hatred and bloodshed, cannot be banished while human nature is what it is.
"But during the past century the steady trend of a deteriorating Christendom has been to underrate the evil of sin and overrate the moral capabilities of men. Instead of proclaiming the heinousness of sin, there has been a dwelling more upon its inconveniences, and the abasing portrayal of the lost condition of man as set forth in Holy Writ has been obscured if not obliterated by flattering disquisitions on human advancement.
"If the popular religion of the churches—including nine-tenths of what is termed "evangelical Christianity—be tested at this point, it will be found that it clashes directly with man's fallen, ruined and spiritually dead condition.
"There is therefore a crying need today for sin to be viewed in the light of God's law and gospel, so that its exceeding sinfulness may be demonstrated, and the dark depths of human depravity exposed by the teaching of Holy Writ, that we may learn what is connoted by those fearful words "dead in trespasses and sins."
"The grand object of the Bible is to make God known to us, to portray man as he appears in the eyes of his Maker, and to show the relation of one to the other. It is therefore the business of His servants not only to declare the divine character and perfections, but also to delineate the original condition and apostasy of man, as well as the divine remedy for his ruin.
"Until we really behold the Horror of the Pit in which by Nature we lie, we can never properly appreciate Christ's So-Great Salvation.*
"In man's fallen condition we have the awful disease for which divine redemption is the only cure, and our estimation and valuation of the provisions of divine grace will necessarily be modified in proportion as we modify the need it was meant to meet..."
*Alan's Note: You Must Know How Lost Your soul is, Before You Can Be Saved,
is an often stated Truth, which relates to our vital knowledge we need to understand about our own personal soul, TO GENUINELY DESIRE JESUS AS OUR SAVIOR, WHEN WE HAVE GAINED THE ASSURANCE THAT WITH MAN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Jesus didn’t teach total depravity. He taught that since man who is sinful is able to recognize and do good, God will be a much better Father when He takes care of those who have come to Him.
I don't have a problem with double predestination.