Self defense and security teams?

[John of Japan]

We are all missionaries in somebody else's territory.

Having been a cross cultural missionary for decades, I'm somewhat jealous of the term. I know pastors say, "You are all missionaries," and sometimes there is a sign over the door as you leave the church, "You are now entering the mission field." However, if everyone is a missionary, the word loses its meaning. (No offense meant, just informing.)

What the missionaries to the Aucas did and died for was far beyond what the typical witness for Christ in a "civilized" country ever dreams of. In our last couple of years in Japan I saw three yakuza (Japanese mafia) come to Christ. One day I asked one, "Do you think the godfather might come to visit me?" He said, "He might." (He didn't. )

But I get the arguments.

I am not trying to change anybody mind, nor am I defending my opinion (I am simply stating it).

The priesthood of the believer grants you this. (I just taught that doctrine to a couple of men at my Sunday School table.)

 

[JonC]

Having been a cross cultural missionary for decades, I'm somewhat jealous of the term. I know pastors say, "You are all missionaries," and sometimes there is a sign over the door as you leave the church, "You are now entering the mission field." However, if everyone is a missionary, the word loses its meaning. (No offense meant, just informing.)

What the missionaries to the Aucas did and died for was far beyond what the typical witness for Christ in a "civilized" country ever dreams of. In our last couple of years in Japan I saw three yakuza (Japanese mafia) come to Christ. One day I asked one, "Do you think the godfather might come to visit me?" He said, "He might." (He didn't. )

The priesthood of the believer grants you this. (I just taught that doctrine to a couple of men at my Sunday School table.)

I do believe that the word (missionary) has to a great extent lost its meaning. I know churches who go on foreign "missions" which are essentually vacations designed to strengthen the person going. I also know churches who go to Los Angeles and minister to "skid row", actually reaching several with the gospel.

That is, obviously, not to detract from foreign missions. But it is an observation. The word has, to a great extent, lost meaning.

Yes, the priesthood of believers does grant me this, but more importantly my opinion (which is always correct) does as well.


Seriously, though, I can see how both views cannot be drawn from Scripture. This is not a topic where I think it is beneficial to challenge the conscious of others.

I will say that I have run across very...militant (?)...Christians that would kill a guy for stealing a car. This is, IMO, an aspect of our culture. We are to some extent, at heart, a violent people. Look at the call to nuke Iran several years ago (even on this forum). Think of how many morning those who die for committing a violent crime (not getting into the issue of capital punishment, but even advocating the death penality it seems there would be a degree of sorrow concerning taking a life rather than almost gleeful celebration). Look at our entertainment.


I wish I did not feel that some (not all, probably not most) who advocate guns in church long for a day they can exercise their 2nd Ammendment rights and kill a man or woman for whom Christ died. I hope my feeling is based on the odd conversation and misses the mark of reality.

 

[JonC]

Interesting statement - Should we defend our opinions? If not - then its more of a preference
(I know, maybe we should start a new OP on this)

Nah....here is fine.

Here it is more than a preference (it is how I understand that we are to live). But it is my understanding rather than a direct statement or command from God's Word.

So its more than "lima beans are gross" and less than "Jesus died for our sins".

 

[John of Japan]

I do believe that the word (missionary) has to a great extent lost its meaning. I know churches who go on foreign "missions" which are essentually vacations designed to strengthen the person going. I also know churches who go to Los Angeles and minister to "skid row", actually reaching several with the gospel.

That is, obviously, not to detract from foreign missions. But it is an observation. The word has, to a great extent, lost meaning.

I think you are right when looking at broader evangelicalism, but fundamentalists still support missionaries by the faith missions method of Hudson Taylor, and have them in often. So to the average fundamentalist, the word "missionary" still means a church-planting, evangelistic cross cultural missionary.

Yes, the priesthood of believers does grant me this, but more importantly my opinion (which is always correct) does as well.


Seriously, though, I can see how both views cannot be drawn from Scripture. This is not a topic where I think it is beneficial to challenge the conscious of others.

I will say that I have run across very...militant (?)...Christians that would kill a guy for stealing a car. This is, IMO, an aspect of our culture. We are to some extent, at heart, a violent people. Look at the call to nuke Iran several years ago (even on this forum). Think of how many morning those who die for committing a violent crime (not getting into the issue of capital punishment, but even advocating the death penality it seems there would be a degree of sorrow concerning taking a life rather than almost gleeful celebration). Look at our entertainment.

I agree with this.

I wish I did not feel that some (not all, probably not most) who advocate guns in church long for a day they can exercise their 2nd Ammendment rights and kill a man or woman for whom Christ died. I hope my feeling is based on the odd conversation and misses the mark of reality.

I think this misses the mark to a large degree, though there may be exceptions. It is certainly not true in our church. The training of a well trained security team will eliminate such people and such motives.

 

[JonC]

I think this misses the mark to a large degree, though there may be exceptions. It is certainly not true in our church. The training of a well trained security team will eliminate such people and such momotives.

I agree. That's why I attributed it to a "feeling" (something I avoid for beliefs). I see this attitude present in online forums and media (which often represent extremes). I have not seen it in churches.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree. That's why I attributed it to a "feeling" (something I avoid for beliefs). I see this attitude present in online forums and media (which often represent extremes). I have not seen it in churches.

Sad that anyone, especially any Christian, would think that way.

 

[JonC]

Sad that anyone, especially any Christian, would think that way.

Yes.....don't even think about starting a thread on the death penalty.

 

[Salty]

Yes.....don't even think about starting a thread on the death penalty.

when you tell me dont.....

 

[Cathode]

I think you are right when looking at broader evangelicalism, but fundamentalists still support missionaries by the faith missions method of Hudson Taylor, and have them in often. So to the average fundamentalist, the word "missionary" still means a church-planting, evangelistic cross cultural missionary.

I agree with this.

I think this misses the mark to a large degree, though there may be exceptions. It is certainly not true in our church. The training of a well trained security team will eliminate such people and such motives.

It depends on who is training them. I’ve seen some very dubious training companies and “ trainers “ that imbue people a completely wrong attitude and disposition. Testosterone fueled bravado that says anything you do is justified if you get to go home that night. Accelerated force escalation seems to be what many “trainers” teach, many looking like steroid abusers, avoid these types.

I would make sure that your security staff are licensed security officers to the level of doormen at least. Bouncers here are certified level 2.
Next level is batons and handcuffs, so impact tools and restraints, level 3.

You must also think of body armour, which is fairly cheap in the states now days. Very low profile vests that don’t even print under T-shirts. Can give you protection in all the main pistol calibres at least, and some defence for knives or impact weapons. Passive defences are another safety tool to consider.

Regular scenario training will reveal what works and what doesn’t and who is effective and who isn’t.

Having trained and licensed security makes a great difference in perception to attending police and in court if there are ongoing legal issues.

Having security cameras at gate, door and in the church can also help legally as an accurate contemporaneous evidential record.

Door attendants and gate attendants give layers of warning, giving precious time for preventative action.

There are many things you can do to mitigate the chances of having to use lethal force in the first place. Intelligent anticipation, higher concept thinking and forethought. Protection could be as simple as closing a gate or door, allowing a physical barrier to do the work for you.

I remember early aid distribution in Timor, it was disastrous. I warned people not to give out aid unless proper crowd management and network was in place, otherwise it just creates a riot and people get injured or killed. And sure enough.

Stupid but well meaning bureaucrats can do very great harm by their ignorance and lack of forethought.

You don’t centralise all the aid in one place for starters, where tens of thousands show up in a frenzied desperate howling mob, a low IQ is behind this circumstance. Have 100 distribution points that are planned for single file, single bag grabs and indelible markers. Low pressure, calm, easy, fast aid dispersal.

Having a general education program in place at a church in case of emergency for all church members is important, having egress and muster points and drills. Parishioners know what is expected of them rather than blind panic and chaos.

I don’t envy people who desire to improve security in churches, at parish councils you will sometimes meet a great deal of resistance. Even moderate security measures seem totally unjustifiable and many automatically think it’s all just about arming the hell out of congregants and blasting the armed intruder.
I educated the parish council with real security thinking first, lots of literature.

How I did it was by presenting levels and options, and leave it to them. You don’t want to be the advocate, they are simply consulting you for knowledge.

Physical barriers is a great place to start.

Fencing, gates, bollards, no ground floor windows at the church, heavy duty doors with steel frames.

Fencing and gates stopped the theft from cars in the car park, this was immediately adopted, but all the other physical barriers happened with time and building additions when the new church hall was built. Over 5 years, all the physical barriers I suggested were put in place.

The Columbarium was made of buttressed brick walls on the inside of the fence, the prayer garden had the same with ornamental roses on them.
Aesthetically pleasing and powerful security measure, there is no reason you can not have beauty and security inculcated in your constructions.
They were already going to build a columbarium and rosary garden, adding security to the design was a no brainer, I wasn’t suggesting gargoyles and murder holes.

 

[Cathode]

The fence was an important addition, anyone could walk onto the church grounds and car park from two sides. We had thieves as the first issue and hoons drive in doing burn outs and doughnuts in the middle of mass.

These ornamental wrought iron pointed fences are good at 6-7 feet, but don’t have the ball feature on the posts as in this photo, this lends itself to hand hold and leap attempts.
These points are an old English design that whilst not sharp, look good, but brings to imagination clothing snag or ankle trap.

But it’s what is on the inside of the fence line that is just as important. Raised heavy limestone block garden beds with bougainvillea or roses with flying dragon thorns planted in them prevent thieves aleaping the fence, or hoon vehicles knocking or nudging fences over.

High points on the raised garden beds will suspend even a large pickup off its wheels. I made a series of V shapes on beds so it acts like dragons teeth.

All this looks beautiful, bougainvillea is amazing in full bloom, however it’s density and thorns are not something you want to leap into.

Over time you can add useful features to eliminate the particular security issues at your church.

 

[John of Japan]

It depends on who is training them. I’ve seen some very dubious training companies and “ trainers “ that imbue people a completely wrong attitude and disposition. Testosterone fueled bravado that says anything you do is justified if you get to go home that night. Accelerated force escalation seems to be what many “trainers” teach, many looking like steroid abusers, avoid these types.

I did say "well trained."

I would make sure that your security staff are licensed security officers to the level of doormen at least. Bouncers here are certified level 2.
Next level is batons and handcuffs, so impact tools and restraints, level 3.

I suggest that the methodology of our Baptist church security team is quite different from what you are describing here.

You must also think of body armour, which is fairly cheap in the states now days. Very low profile vests that don’t even print under T-shirts. Can give you protection in all the main pistol calibres at least, and some defence for knives or impact weapons. Passive defences are another safety tool to consider.

Regular scenario training will reveal what works and what doesn’t and who is effective and who isn’t.

Having trained and licensed security makes a great difference in perception to attending police and in court if there are ongoing legal issues.

Having security cameras at gate, door and in the church can also help legally as an accurate contemporaneous evidential record.

We do have a full range of security cameras.

Door attendants and gate attendants give layers of warning, giving precious time for preventative action.

There are many things you can do to mitigate the chances of having to use lethal force in the first place. Intelligent anticipation, higher concept thinking and forethought. Protection could be as simple as closing a gate or door, allowing a physical barrier to do the work for you.

I remember early aid distribution in Timor, it was disastrous. I warned people not to give out aid unless proper crowd management and network was in place, otherwise it just creates a riot and people get injured or killed. And sure enough.

Stupid but well meaning bureaucrats can do very great harm by their ignorance and lack of forethought.

You don’t centralise all the aid in one place for starters, where tens of thousands show up in a frenzied desperate howling mob, a low IQ is behind this circumstance. Have 100 distribution points that are planned for single file, single bag grabs and indelible markers. Low pressure, calm, easy, fast aid dispersal.

Having a general education program in place at a church in case of emergency for all church members is important, having egress and muster points and drills. Parishioners know what is expected of them rather than blind panic and chaos.

I don’t envy people who desire to improve security in churches, at parish councils you will sometimes meet a great deal of resistance. Even moderate security measures seem totally unjustifiable and many automatically think it’s all just about arming the hell out of congregants and blasting the armed intruder.
I educated the parish council with real security thinking first, lots of literature.

How I did it was by presenting levels and options, and leave it to them. You don’t want to be the advocate, they are simply consulting you for knowledge.

Physical barriers is a great place to start.

Fencing, gates, bollards, no ground floor windows at the church, heavy duty doors with steel frames.

Fencing and gates stopped the theft from cars in the car park, this was immediately adopted, but all the other physical barriers happened with time and building additions when the new church hall was built. Over 5 years, all the physical barriers I suggested were put in place.

The Columbarium was made of buttressed brick walls on the inside of the fence, the prayer garden had the same with ornamental roses on them.
Aesthetically pleasing and powerful security measure, there is no reason you can not have beauty and security inculcated in your constructions.
They were already going to build a columbarium and rosary garden, adding security to the design was a no brainer, I wasn’t suggesting gargoyles and murder holes.

This post is full of good thoughts. I'm going to put it into a Word doc and keep it for reference. However, I'm not in charge of our team, though I have some influence being the old guy that I am.

Anyway, thanks.

 

[Salty]

and just keep in mind that different States/Commonwealths have different law/policies

 

[Cathode]

Mont saint Michel was the inspiration for Tolkien’s Minas Tirith.



Catholic Churches and Monasteries have been fortified for over a thousand years at various times and places in the west.

Times have changed, however many things of the past can be used again, though perhaps not on such an epic scale.
These things are primarily defensive in nature.

If you look at the incredible crusader fortresses on the ground, you realise the great effort it was to defend the pilgrims on their journeys to the Holy Land. These were state of the art defences in their day, they could be defended by small numbers of knights, but to take or even breach them required inordinate numbers and resources. I had the privilege to visit Mont Saint Michel and many of the crusader castles and really appreciated the genius architecture set in place.

 

[Cathode]

I did say "well trained."

I suggest that the methodology of our Baptist church security team is quite different from what you are describing here.

We do have a full range of security cameras.

This post is full of good thoughts. I'm going to put it into a Word doc and keep it for reference. However, I'm not in charge of our team, though I have some influence being the old guy that I am.

Anyway, thanks.

It’s great that someone is thinking about security.

A French Priest was martyred during Mass in 2016, Father Jacques Hamel. Islamic state were the perpetrators, cutting his throat. He was 85 years old.

It was this shocking incident that spurred me look into better church security. At the time Islamic State was promising to make these attacks more numerous right across the western world. It seemed then that this kind of threat was going to become a regular thing in our lives.

Love compels us to think in terms of defending others, however these kinds of events are fantastic rare opportunities to die a martyr, witnessing with your blood.

 

[Cathode]

and just keep in mind that different States/Commonwealths have different law/policies

Good point, there are a lot of differences in what is permitted for civilians to use across jurisdictions.
Some states in America I think even body armour is illegal, like Australia’s Ned Kelly Laws.
Ned Kelly was a notorious bush ranger who covered himself with plate armour and helmet to take on police in a gun fight.

Important to check all the legalities.

 

[John of Japan]

It’s great that someone is thinking about security.

A French Priest was martyred during Mass in 2016, Father Jacques Hamel. Islamic state were the perpetrators, cutting his throat. He was 85 years old.

It was this shocking incident that spurred me look into better church security. At the time Islamic State was promising to make these attacks more numerous right across the western world. It seemed then that this kind of threat was going to become a regular thing in our lives.

Love compels us to think in terms of defending others, however these kinds of events are fantastic rare opportunities to die a martyr, witnessing with your blood.

Several years ago a Baptist missionary of our acquantance was shot to death in Cameroon by an unknown assailant. Many places on that continent are still dangerous. The northern half of the country is off limits due to the insurgency.

I preached in Bangladesh about 15 years ago--Muslim majority. They had tall fences and a professional security team, otherwise they would be robbed blind. Plus the Muslims sometimes beat up believers.

 

[John of Japan]

Yesterday there was a church shooting in Lexington, Kentucky, where two ladies from the Richmond Baptist Church were shot dead, and their husbands were wounded, apparently in the church basement. Then the shooter was shot dead by police. Here's a link: https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/13/us/kentucky-shooting-lexington-church-ky

I find it sad that there are those who oppose having a church security team that can prevent such tragedies. There was nothing religious about the event. The man just wanted to kill a mother of several children. Apparently the man knew those he killed. Once again, look at the Scripture, which very clearly teaches us to deliver those about to be killed: "If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (Prov. 24:11-12). What more do we need to prove church security is biblical?

 

[Cathode]

Yesterday there was a church shooting in Lexington, Kentucky, where two ladies from the Richmond Baptist Church were shot dead, and their husbands were wounded, apparently in the church basement. Then the shooter was shot dead by police. Here's a link: https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/13/us/kentucky-shooting-lexington-church-ky

I find it sad that there are those who oppose having a church security team that can prevent such tragedies. There was nothing religious about the event. The man just wanted to kill a mother of several children. Apparently the man knew those he killed. Once again, look at the Scripture, which very clearly teaches us to deliver those about to be killed: "If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (Prov. 24:11-12). What more do we need to prove church security is biblical?

Martyrdom is also biblical, but out of love for others we should have some good prudent and practical measures in place for security.

People need to prepare mentally and spiritually for martyrdom by open persecution.

 

[John of Japan]

Martyrdom is also biblical, but out of love for others we should have some good prudent and practical measures in place for security.

People need to prepare mentally and spiritually for martyrdom by open persecution.

Agreed.

 

[Darrell C]

I don't think so.

I simply do not believe security teams (armed security) at a church is right.
But I have been in churches where it did feel safer.

What should the church do to an enemy seeking to do harm? Lovingly kill them?

At the same time I have been in areas where I felt safer with security. But how I felt has no bearing on whether it was right or wrong.

What comes to mind is a shepherd protecting his flock. In David's day, for example, he sang softly but carried a big stick. In our day, we could hope John OJ scenarios might take place, where the intruder gets a whupping and is taken into custody, but back then, lions and wolves didn't carry guns. We're a small congregation, so not much of a target, but I feel it is more of a duty of the pastor to take precautions to keep his flock protected from physical danger as well as spiritual. Just my two cents.

God bless.