John 1:12-13 revisited.

[Alan Dale Gross]

OT believers were born again.

The Blessings of The Eternal Covenant of Grace are the same under both Administrations of the ONE Overall Eternal Covenant of Grace,
as we see in these wonderful verses regarding the First Old Testament Covenant and the Second New Testament Covenant of Grace.

Salvation and Redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed
under the First Old Testament Covenant as under the Second New Testament Covenant of Grace,
#2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

Justification by the Righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament saints had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the New,
#Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

Forgiveness of sin through Faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now,
had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

Regeneration, Spiritual Circumcision, and Sanctification, were what men were made partakers of under the First,
as under the Second Administration of the ONE Overall Eternal Covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

Eternal Life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New;
and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former Administration, as of the latter Administration,
#Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

In a word, they and we eat the same Spiritual Meat, and drink the same Spiritual Drink,
because they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4.

 

[Dave...]

"But to as many as received Him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Hi Alan

Thanks for the reply.

Anyone who is a son of God is born again. That's what he's saying. The word "were" connects born again to sons of God. This does not mean that it's the cause of faith. It's like saying "...power to become sons of God, born again, not by..."

And it is NOT of the flesh, but of the Spirit. In short, the beginning of our being perfected, which is from God, not the flesh, is being born again, and that comes as a result of believing on Him.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? **Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?**

All by the power of Gods Spirit.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

Yes, Only Jesus, both fully God and fully man could fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law on our behalf.

And, of course, that is the entire message of John 3, which has John 3:16 in it.

this part of John 3 is important. Vs. 13-15

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

That was realized at Pentecost. True OT believers who had already passed, weren't yet ascended because they weren't justified, or born again. I don't think it's possible to have one without the other, since they are both the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Look at Romans 5:1 above.

The born of God part hinges on Christ first being glorified. Then the Holy Spirit indwelling can be given, as a result, people are placed into Christ, thus being spiritually baptized into His death and raised up with Him, thus, born again. All as a result of this promised indwelling. But that was still future for Nicodemus when he was speaking to Jesus. Jesus, speaking of being born again, said this in that same OT dispensation....

John 7:37-29 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Son of man must be lifted up (John 3:14), Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:39). Both are speaking of the same thing. Nicodemus was not yet born again when that conversation between Jesus and him happened as recorded in John 3. It was still OT dispensation. Jesus never said that Nicodemus was born again there. It's read into the text by tradition. In John 3, Jesus is speaking of a future event that was not yet reality. John the Baptist prophesied about it, and it was realized at Pentecost, after the Son of man was lifted up (John 3:14), after Jesus was glorified (John 7:39).

Dave

 

[Dave...]

The Blessings of The Eternal Covenant of Grace are the same under both Administrations of the ONE Overall Eternal Covenant of Grace,
as we see in these wonderful verses regarding the First Old Testament Covenant and the Second New Testament Covenant of Grace.

Salvation and Redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed
under the First Old Testament Covenant as under the Second New Testament Covenant of Grace,
#2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

Justification by the Righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament saints had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the New,
#Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

Forgiveness of sin through Faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now,
had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

Regeneration, Spiritual Circumcision, and Sanctification, were what men were made partakers of under the First,
as under the Second Administration of the ONE Overall Eternal Covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

Eternal Life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New;
and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former Administration, as of the latter Administration,
#Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

In a word, they and we eat the same Spiritual Meat, and drink the same Spiritual Drink,
because they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4.

They still had to wait Romans 3:23-26

Paul said in Romans 8, we also who have the first fruits of the Spirit. (emphasis "firstfruits")

Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Even though this next one is speaking of the physical resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:20 parallels the same reality physically, that Romans 8:23 speaks of spiritually.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.....

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

This is what is meant by Christ first needing to be glorified. His death, resurrection, and ascension are the first fruits of our being born again. We need his death to be placed into and His resurrection to be raised up in, born again, which are the result of being placed into Christ, that is, the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The baptism, or indwelling is the result of faith.

BTW, 'sons of God' is a NT concept. Special emphasis on where it is speaking of sons of God.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

He set that up Romans 8:9-13 by saying that if we have the indwelling, we have Christ, and if we don't have the indwelling, we don't belong to Christ.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In that light, lets look at John 1:12-13 again, and also consider the biggest context, that what was recorded happened before Christ was glorified, meaning it's still the OT. NET version. Which is the proper order.

12-13 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Waiting for the firstfruits, waiting for Jesus to be glorified, waiting for the holy spirit to be given, and thus be the firstfruits of the Spirit.

Do you see it Alan?

Dave

 

[Dave...]

@Eternally Grateful
@kyredneck
@Brightfame52
@Dave G
@Alan Dale Gross

I wanted to recommend Sinclair Ferguson and a 13 part you-tube series that he did on the Holy Spirit. While I disagree with his belief that OT believers were born again, (he never gave a reason why he believed that), I still found his work very insightful and it was very rewarding to hear this series. He touched on a lot of the points and Scripture that were discussed in this thread. This is from Ligonier ministries, and his work is considered the go to from all the reformed pastors from Ligonier ministries, including Sproul, etc.. Sinclair Ferguson is new to me, but is quickly becoming a favorite. I still have a few more parts to go to finish the series, but I'm looking forward to them.

The Holy spirit - Sinclair Ferguson

Share your videos with friends, family, and the world

www.youtube.com

 

[kyredneck]

Sinclair Ferguson is new to me, but is quickly becoming a favorite.

GOOD! There's hope for you yet!

 

[kyredneck]

While I disagree with his belief that OT believers were born again

Perhaps you will some day when you accept that it's NOT 'born again', it's 'born from above', and the 'women' depicted in Gen 3:15, Ps 87, Isa 54, Gal 4:26, and Rev 12 are all the same, which is your mother.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

12; "...But to as many as received Him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

The word "were" connects born again to sons of God. This does not mean that it's the cause of faith.

13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

You say that being born again doesn't cause faith.

So where the Bible says that being born of God is not by being born of blood, or being born by the will of the flesh, or the will of man,
aren't we going to need to say thattis an activity that is performed "by the will of the flesh", or "of the will of man"?

Since, "the will of the flesh", or "of the will of man", has to be the activity which performs "faith", and being born again is not of them,
then, 'faith' certainly does not have any right to claim that it could proceed being "born again" "of God", whatsoever.

Whereas, the word "were" does connect being "born again" to becoming "sons of God", because that's the way it is.

being born again, and that comes as a result of believing on Him.

I don't see anything indicating a cause and effect relationship between 'believing on him'/ 'having faith', as the cause, with the resulting effect being that their soul is then "born again". I don't see anything like that in the Bible, or even in your arguments, except when you just say things you've come up with. But, I suppose that you think you do.

Yes, Only Jesus, both fully God and fully man could fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law on our behalf.

Jesus chose to lay down that Perfectly Righteous Life that He Accomplished Living under the Law, in the Place of sinners,
and Took Upon Himself the guilt of all the sins of His people, of all of the souls that God the Father had Given Jesus to Save.

His Chosen Elect come to know that it was that sin of God's Chosen Elect that brought about the death of Jesus Christ.

So, who are the Elect?

The Elect are the ones who have seen that it is their personal sins against an Eternally Holy God that Offended Him by breaking His Laws, as unrighteous and utterly ungodly lost souls. They have seen their need of a Savior from the Lake of Fire they earned by their own sinful Nature, their sinful behavior and their sinful habits.

Others pride themselves on having 'faith', so they will go to Heaven, THEY HOPE, when they die, but they only boast about that up to the point where they are tying to convince themselves, or anyone else, that they have absolute assurance that they WILL GO TO HEAVEN, whereupon, we always get THEIR, "I HOPE SO"-'salvation' from them that they ultimately profess. But you never hear much talk from them about sin, or their own personal sin against God, nor any way in which their sin needed to, or was, dealt with.

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

If there somewhere it is supposed to actually be taught that Jesus being "lifted up" has any connection or relationship to Jesus being "Glorified", I don't know where that would be. You say that there is some link between them, but I don't see it being taught anywhere.

That was realized at Pentecost.

Jesus was prophesied by John the Baptist, to be the One Who would baptize the water-baptized believers who were members of the Lord's church at Jerusalem, with the church-assembly Indwelling with the Presence of the Holy Spirit's Shakinah Glory Promised in Danial 9:24e, "to Anoint the Most Holy", which would then also bring about the Special Instantaneous Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which Enabled them to Perform Miractulous Healings, etc.

True OT believers who had already passed, weren't yet ascended because they weren't justified, or born again.

"Whom He Foreknew, He also did Predestinate..., whom He Predestinated, them He also Called, and whom He Called, them He also Justified."

The born of God part hinges on Christ first being glorified.

I have never seen that taught anywhere.

Then the Holy Spirit indwelling can be given, as a result, people are placed into Christ

I can't imagine where you ever came up with the idea of anyone being 'placed' into Christ. Jesus took my Place.

thus being spiritually baptized into His death

I've never seen where the Holy Spirit has ever baptized anything.

All as a result of this promised indwelling.

You'd have to confirm your assumption of the word "indwelling" being appropriate in the scenarios you are claiming for that to apply to, otherwise the idea that a soul gets some "indwelling" is not being talked about, concerning Jesus baptizing His local church as a Perpetual Divine Institution on the Day of Pentecost.

Jesus, speaking of being born again, said this in that same OT dispensation....

He sure did, and Jesus knows His Bible, and when He was saying what He did and it wasn't just to waste His Breath on something which had not been Brought into Reality, yet. Jesus Knew what He was talking about.

Son of man must be lifted up (John 3:14), Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:39). Both are speaking of the same thing.

There is nothing that indicates anything like that in the Bible.

Nicodemus was not yet born again when that conversation between Jesus and him happened as recorded in John 3.

No, he wasn't.

Jesus never said that Nicodemus was born again there.

No, He didn't.

It's read into the text by tradition.

No, it's not. Nobody says he got born again right then, but Jesus did say, "you must be born again".

In John 3, Jesus is speaking of a future event that was not yet reality.

Not a chance.

John the Baptist prophesied about it, and it was realized at Pentecost, after the Son of man was lifted up (John 3:14), after Jesus was glorified (John 7:39).

No way.

waiting for Jesus to be glorified

Nope.

waiting for the holy spirit to be given

That's talking about Supernatural Miraculous Gifts of the Spirit given to born again saints in and around Pentecost.

 

[Dave...]

Perhaps you will some day when you accept that it's NOT 'born again', it's 'born from above', and the 'women' depicted in Gen 3:15, Ps 87, Isa 54, Gal 4:26, and Rev 12 are all the same, which is your mother.

Being born again and born from above, same thing. I see no difference and either way the term is used It has no effect on my theology.

Sinclair Ferguson noted in that same series, that it's a common mistake putting too much emphasis on the covenants, which he said, "could unintentionally obscure the central role of Christ and the gospel".

Bold is not mine. Sorry, I couldn't get it out.

I looked for a specific quote but couldn't find it. I found these instead.

In that interview about his book "The Whole Christ," Ferguson notes that while aspects like covenant theology are important, they shouldn't become the primary focus, eclipsing the direct presentation of Jesus Christ himself as the Redeemer.

He clarifies that elements like "Covenant theology... the doctrine of justification, the inseparability of sanctification from justification..." are crucial theological concepts, but they didn't die on the cross for us – only Jesus Christ did. Therefore, the preaching and understanding of the covenants should always ultimately point to and center on Christ himself.

 

[Dave...]

12; "...But to as many as received Him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."



You say that being born again doesn't cause faith.

So where the Bible says that being born of God is not by being born of blood, or being born by the will of the flesh, or the will of man,
aren't we going to need to say thattis an activity that is performed "by the will of the flesh", or "of the will of man"?

Hi Alan.

We receive the Holy Spirit as a result of faith. That receiving of the Holy Spirit is what makes us born again. These are two different things. First believe, then receive. What we receive is 100% from the Spirit, not the will of the flesh. That includes all the life that results from that indwelling, starting with being born again. The faith part, is a whole separate issue. I know reformed theology will not allow that separation between the two, that being, faith and being born again. But you must, because the Bible does. The Gospel is believe and be saved. We are saved/delivered from both the penalty of sin (justification), and the power of sin (born from above ). These are both the result of believing. Your mind must separate the two. First, simply for the sake of argument, so that you can understand what it is that you're arguing against. Second, and more importantly, because I believe that's what the Bible teaches. But for now, do it just for the sake of argument, so you can wrap your mind around what i'm saying.

Since, "the will of the flesh", or "of the will of man", has to be the activity which performs "faith", and being born again is not of them,
then, 'faith' certainly does not have any right to claim that it could proceed being "born again" "of God", whatsoever.

The Gospel message is believe and be saved. It's everywhere. Saved, means born again, and justified. Believe and be saved. What order do you see here?

What Does the Bible Say About Believe In The Name Of Jesus And Be Saved?

Bible verses about Believe In The Name Of Jesus And Be Saved

www.openbible.info

Without the Spirit of Christ, you don't belong to Him. With the Spirit of Christ you do. When did born again happen here. "begun" here equals born again.

Gal 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Whereas, the word "were" does connect being "born again" to becoming "sons of God", because that's the way it is.

But "were" doesn't make 'sons of God, born again' the cause of the faith. That's read into the text.

I don't see anything indicating a cause and effect relationship between 'believing on him'/ 'having faith', as the cause, with the resulting effect being that their soul is then "born again". I don't see anything like that in the Bible, or even in your arguments, except when you just say things you've come up with. But, I suppose that you think you do.

Like I said, the statement doesn't say what is read into it. I'm not making a claim from that passage to prove something, though I could if it is read accurately. I don't need to. My beliefs are supported in many other places is Scripture. I'm simply stating the obvious. Anyone trying to use that passage as a proof text that born again causes faith is going beyond what the text actually says.

The Elect are the ones who have seen that it is their personal sins against an Eternally Holy God that Offended Him by breaking His Laws, as unrighteous and utterly ungodly lost souls. They have seen their need of a Savior from the Lake of Fire they earned by their own sinful Nature, their sinful behavior and their sinful habits.

Others pride themselves on having 'faith', so they will go to Heaven, THEY HOPE, when they die, but they only boast about that up to the point where they are tying to convince themselves, or anyone else, that they have absolute assurance that they WILL GO TO HEAVEN, whereupon, we always get THEIR, "I HOPE SO"-'salvation' from them that they ultimately profess. But you never hear much talk from them about sin, or their own personal sin against God, nor any way in which their sin needed to, or was, dealt with.

The Holy Spirit, when given at Pentecost, began to convict and draw the whole world.

John 16: Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

If there somewhere it is supposed to actually be taught that Jesus being "lifted up" has any connection or relationship to Jesus being "Glorified", I don't know where that would be. You say that there is some link between them, but I don't see it being taught anywhere.

Here's a few more.


John 8: 28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

John 12:28, 32-24 Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came from heaven, saying, "I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.".....And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." This He said, signifying by what death He would die. The people answered Him, "We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?"

Jesus was prophesied by John the Baptist, to be the One Who would baptize the water-baptized believers who were members of the Lord's church at Jerusalem, with the church-assembly Indwelling with the Presence of the Holy Spirit's Shakinah Glory Promised in Danial 9:24e, "to Anoint the Most Holy", which would then also bring about the Special Instantaneous Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which Enabled them to Perform Miractulous Healings, etc.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you **with the Holy Spirit** and fire. (Luke 3:16)

Acts 1:5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." (Acts 2:1-4, 11:15-16)

I can't imagine where you ever came up with the idea of anyone being 'placed' into Christ. Jesus took my Place.
I've never seen where the Holy Spirit has ever baptized anything.

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

I'll need to get back to this later.

 

[Dave...]

I can't imagine where you ever came up with the idea of anyone being 'placed' into Christ. Jesus took my Place.

Lets start here.

Jesus is the Church. It's a spiritual body. Jesus always existed, thus the Church always existed, BUT, we call Pentecost the birth of the Church because that the first believers placed into that spiritual Body, the one True Church, Jesus. This is why it's called "in Christ" in Scripture. The baptism with the Holy spirit is just that. The placing into with the holy spirit. That placing into is not the holy Spirit being placed into us by Jesus, though He is, as a result of faith, but that placing into is us being placed into Christ as a result of that indwelling. Being in Him, we receive our justification, and being born again. Baptism means placing into.

Eph. 1:22-23 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph. 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Col. 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

These are all speaking of the Spirit baptism. that is, receiving the Holy Spirit, from Jesus, as a result of faith. This places us "in Christ, the Body the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12-14 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized (placed into) into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Col. 2:10-14 **In Him** you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Gal. 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It's the indwelling that places us in Christ. This indwelling had to wait for the giving of the Holy Spirit. The giving of the Holy Spirit had to wait for the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. Promises don't cleanse Temples. Blood does.

Matthew 16:16-18 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

The rock is the Gospel, Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 Therefore, if anyone is **in Christ** he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Dave

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I can't imagine where you ever came up with the idea of anyone being 'placed' into Christ. Jesus took my Place.

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were into His death?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

the act of being baptized is to be placed into something. or immersed in something

here Paul tells us in two different places we were placed into christ.

I've never seen where the Holy Spirit has ever baptized anything.

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

 

[Dave...]

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were into His death?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

the act of being baptized is to be placed into something. or immersed in something

here Paul tells us in two different places we were placed into christ.



Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Exactly, and amen. It's Jesus doing the baptizing, and the Holy Spirit is the Agent of that 'placing into'. Everybody who is a Christian did receive the Holy Spirit indwelling as a result of their faith. So we know that every believer, even today, has been baptized/placed into/immersed by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Even the OT believers who had to wait for it.

Jesus is literally placing Himself in us. That's why the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ. That's why Jesus said in John "I Am with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans". The baptizing with the Holy Spirit accomplishes that. And also answers Jesus' prayer that they (us) may be one.

Check this out. JMac pointed this out many moons ago. This is before the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. Before Pentecost.

John 17:21-24 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

This is after Jesus was glorified, after the transition recorded in Acts. Jesus' prayer is answered in the baptizing with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Cool, right?

 

[Dave...]

Here's the Church in the making. Really cool.

Ephesians 2:11-22 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Cool, right?

I think this verse says it well.

For by one spirit (the HS is the one performing the action) we were all baptized into one Body (the church)

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

27 "And Jesus looking upon them saith,
With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

“Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?” Galatians 3:3

You say that 'starting' here means the same as if it said 'after being born' in the Spirit,
but if you added those same words 'being born' in place of where the only other scripture that uses that word is translated 'began',
it would read like this:

“…being confident of this, that He who 'birthed' a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” Philippians 1:6
and that would be teaching that 'being born' or 'birthed' is the result of God being the One Who CAUSES that 'being born' or 'birthed';

All of which is the opposite of the bright idea you had, trying to say that "'starting' in the Spirit"
could be thought of as being similar to "'being born' in the Spirit," in any way.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Yes it proves that he was, he worked righteousness before God 1 Jn 2:29

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Cornelius Acts 10:35

Cornelius Acts 10:35

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

And Im not going to go back and forth about , its obvious the truth is hidden from you

You are 100% correct. The Bible talks about people who are saved had first came to know what it actually was like to be "dead in trespasses and sins" and, therefore, for them to correctly understand their Infinite Need for a Savior, not just to pretend they are 'saved' because they 'believed'.

'Believed' what? "The devils believe", James 2:19.

There is infinitely more involved in salvation than thinking God WILL be consenting to your decision,
as Jesus said, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19.

Saved people have personally experienced a time when they knew they were lost.

People who eventually get saved, find out along the way in life by the Holy Sprit Working on their lost heart: that they are an 'undone' wretched sin-cursed 'worm'. They come to understand that theyt are 'LOST', because they know that God knows, that they know that God knows, that they are helpless, SPIRITUALLY BANKRUPT, IMPOTENT and DEAD, Spiritually, to the One and Only True and Living God, WHO IS SPIRIT, (because they HAVE NO 'SPARK OF DIVINITY' THEY SUPPOSEDLY GOT BY BEING BORN NATURALLY IN "THE IMAGE OF GOD(???)

People have to know that by their actions they are breaking God's Commandments,
which IS ETERNALLY OFFENSIVE TO THE PERFECTLY HOLY JUDGE OF THE UNIVERSE.

It is the Law that the Holy Spirit used to CONVICT their soul in their CONSCIENCE
and DRIVES THEM TO THE ONLY SATISFACTION FOR SIN, JESUS CHRIST, THE SAVIOR.
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

Then, of course, on the saving side of the Salvation Experience, GOD DRAWS THE SINNER TO BELIEF IN WHAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS AND IN HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, TBTAIN ETERNAL LIFE, FOR AS MANY AS GOD HAD GIVEN HIM.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

I hear people talking about how they came up with some "belief" in something. Still, if they have never been convicted enough of their sins to have an understanding that "Salvation is of the Lord" and that it is The Lord Who saved them, did they just 'believe' a Person Named 'Jesus Christ' was Someone that SOME people believe came up out of the grave, from the dead?

At the same time, they 'BELIEVED' they were yet ungodly and WITHOUT STRENGTH? So then I want to know, WHERE IS THEIR "TEACHABLE SPIRIT"? Shouldn't they be able to comprehend and decern, Spiritually, what God means when He says that Salvation is Originated by His Will and Mercy, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,
that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth". Romans 9:15b-18.

and that, as far as Who's WILL it is His people shall be Willing in the day of His Power", NOT THEIRS.

Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God tellks us about Who's Power it is that saves, by telling us WHERE WE GET THE POWER TO BECOME "WILLING",

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power," Psalm 110:3, if we have "ears to hear."

In Mark 4:9 "...he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" II TIMOTHY 4:10.quicken us

he understood man by nature

who were dead

He was aware of mans innate sinfulness by birth Ps 51:5,11

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I think this verse says it well.

For by one spirit (the HS is the one performing the action) we were all baptized into one Body (the church)

So, the Holy Spirit is the Acting Cause "performing the action" and the Agent Used by the Holy Spirit to baptize with is The Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit 'baptized' 'with' Himself? The Holy Spirit Took The Holy Spirit and 'baptized' something?

That's not the way things are done in a Cause and Effect Universe. You have to get around that.

Where did you come up with the word "with" in your statement, BTW? It's not in the Book.

And you have to get around the Bible never mentioning anything about the Holy Spirit doing the baptizing of anyone.

The Holy Spirit never baptized anyone or anything. It's not in their.

DID YOU KNOW that the Bible tells everyone who will read it and can discern its meaning, Spiritually,
exactly what the 'body' was that he was talking about? No?

After God Speaks and says "God tempered the body together", etc., etc., etc., always talking about how the various members with different Gifts are brought together by Him, after He saves them and then leads them to be water baptized into a church like those organized in the New Testament, God tells me, I Corinthians 12:27 "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

That 'body' of believers had been water-baptized to join together in the Lord's church located specifically in Corinth.

You should know that "members in particular" means that he is talking about "particular members".

Those "particular members" had been saved, baptized into the membership of the one body of Christ in Corinth.

WHAT about that?

If you even begin to see what I'm saying the Bible teaches, your thinking would need to include, "I see what the Bible says, even though it makes almost everyone I have ever met, W R O N G-O".

If you ever doubt how so many could have been wrong about that, explain to me why the very definition of anything and everything that could be considered a 'body' had to have a complete 180% adjustment made to it, so 'now' it 'means' just the opposite of what the word 'body' always has expressed, i.e., a 'contained' so and so, changed to an 'uncontained', global scattering? That, my friend, is taboo.

That is no less than rewriting the Bible. That is the work of the Devil. Period. Amen.

Hint: Nothing of the kind of 'body' that Satan has influenced men to utterly and absolutely bastardize into thinking it can mean the opposite of what it's always meant and still does, ever came about in anyone's wording used, UNTIL THE REFORMATION.

Reformers couldn't say they had any authority to claim to be what the Roman false churches said they were, as a 'Universal' worldwide 'church' which entirely and completely bastardized that Bible. The Romans had to change the word 'church' to try and make it sound like it is something other than a 'local, congregating assembly' which only 'evolved' by the supernatural evil-inspired twisting of the sin-cursed reasoning of man.

You can't take a word in the Bible and then say that according to you, it means the exact opposite.

Wouldn't you agree with that?

Then why do you think that it is O.K. for the Romans to do that with the word 'church'?

And then why do you take it upon yourself to completely reverse the entire meaning of the word 'body'?

What do I mean? God says He tempered the body together and you say that God tempered the body is 'apart' ALL OVER THE ENTIRE WORLD.

BUT THAT'S NOT THE CLINCHER. THEN YOU SAY THAT 'BODY' IS 'INVISIBLE'.

WOW!

Because men do? That's not right.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, the Holy Spirit is the Acting Cause "performing the action" and the Agent Used by the Holy Spirit to baptize with is The Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit 'baptized' 'with' Himself? The Holy Spirit Took The Holy Spirit and 'baptized' something?

That's not the way things are done in a Cause and Effect Universe. You have to get around that.

Where did you come up with the word "with" in your statement, BTW? It's not in the Book.

And you have to get around the Bible never mentioning anything about the Holy Spirit doing the baptizing of anyone.

The Holy Spirit never baptized anyone or anything. It's not in their.

DID YOU KNOW that the Bible tells everyone who will read it and can discern its meaning, Spiritually,
exactly what the 'body' was that he was talking about? No?

After God Speaks and says "God tempered the body together", etc., etc., etc., always talking about how the various members with different Gifts are brought together by Him, God tells me, I Corinthians 12:27 "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

That 'body' of believers had been water-baptized to join together in the Lord's church located specifically in Corinth.

You should know that "members in particular" means that he is talking about "particular members".

Those "particular members" had been saved, baptized into the membership of the one body of Christ in Corinth.

WHAT about that?

Your thinking would need to include, "I see what the Bible says, even though it makes almost everyone I have ever met, W R O N G-O".

If you ever doubt anybody could have been wrong about that, explain to me why the very definition of anything and everything that could be considered a 'body' had to have a complete 180% adjustment made to it, so 'now' it 'means' just the opposite of what the word 'body' always has expressed, i.e., a 'contained' so and so, changed to an 'uncontained', global scattering? That, my friend, is taboo.

That is no less than rewriting the Bible. That is the work of the Devil. Period. Amen.

Col 2: 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

I was baptized by the one who raised Christ from the dead.

Titus 3: 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

I was washed by the HS

put two and two together

 

[Dave...]

“Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?” Galatians 3:3

You say that 'starting' here means the same as if it said 'after being born' in the Spirit,
but if you added those same words 'being born' in place of where the only other scripture that uses that word is translated 'began',
it would read like this:

“…being confident of this, that He who 'birthed' a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” Philippians 1:6
and that would be teaching that 'being born' or 'birthed' is the result of God being the One Who CAUSES that 'being born' or 'birthed';

All of which is the opposite of the bright idea you had, trying to say that "'starting' in the Spirit"
could be thought of as being similar to "'being born' in the Spirit," in any way.

Hi Allen

I'm saying that "begun in the Spirit" is the result of receiving the indwelling. That results in a lot of things. One of them is being born again.

Phil. 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you (by the Spirit that you received as a result of faith) will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; (1 Corinthians 4:7)

Matthew 19:26 is a justification statement. Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law on our behalf, thus what is impossible for man is possible for God. That's the righteousness of God that is imputed to us when we are "in Christ". The way that you're using it, Matt. 19:26, I wonder if you think that we somehow we reach a sate of righteousness and justify ourselves with God's help. That's not what it means. Please clarify your use of that passage.

And the Church, it never carried the idea of buildings, or denominations. The believers are the Church. Assembled together they are called the church of Corinth, or the church of Ephesus, but these are the believers only. And the Church will go to the whole world, not just in Baptistville. The great commission calls believers to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, making disciples, baptizing believers (as a public testimony), and teaching them to obey God's commandments. Matthew 28:19-20.

And while I agree that it is Jesus doing the Spirit baptizing, and the Holy Spirit being the agent of that placing into, it's not that cut and dry. The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ in the book of Romans. This is why Jesus said in John that "I'm with you, and will be in you." Thus we have Jesus baptizing us with Jesus. What is impossible with man is possible with God could apply here too. There's always overlapping with the Trinity. Jesus told the Disciples that if they knew Him, they also knew the Father (John 14:9). But, for the sake of argument, I get what you're saying. John the Baptist prophesied that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Dave

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...

Phil. 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you (by the Spirit that you received as a result of faith) will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; (1 Corinthians 4:7)

But Faith is the result of the Spirit, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. Surely you dont believe Faith in salvation is the fruit of the flesh do you ?