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The Absolute Sovereignty of God

Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
Aren't you glad that God has determined that I will not call you an obscene name, Silverhair?
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So much better when you use your God given free will not to do so.


KenH said:
To again quote from the OP: "Further, where a man commits a sin (be that Shimei, Pharaoh, Judas Iscariot, the unbelieving Jews, you, or I) he does not do that against his own will. He doesn't do something that he does not want to do, or that he is forced into doing. Pharaoh wanted to keep the Israelites as slaves. Judas wanted that silver. With our sins, we also want something that we think is desirable. The key point in all this is that when God exercises His sovereignty in respect to man and his deeds, He does not interfere between the will of man and the act of man. If God would interject Himself between the will and the act of man, man would indeed be a stock and a block."
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The contradiction in your religion is clearly seen in those words Ken. Man cannot have a free will when according to your religion He determines all things.

You keep trying to avoid the problem with these long comments but bottom line is if God determines all things then it means He determines all things.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
So I will ask you again about what happened in Tennessee, a simple yes or no will suffice as far as I am concerned:

Are you saying it was just plain "bad luck"?
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As I said before Ken and which you want to avoid. If as you claim, God determines all things then He must have determined what happened.

So did God determine what happened in Tennessee or not. A simple YES or NO will suffice as far as I am concerned.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
Yes.

Now, will you be as accommodating and answer my question with a "Yes" or "No"?
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No such thing as good or bad luck Ken. Man makes his choices and lives with the consequences.

The fact a tree fell is just nature, could be wind blew it over or the soil gave way.

So not a yes or no answer Ken.
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
No such thing as good or bad luck Ken. Man makes his choices and lives with the consequences.

The fact a tree fell is just nature, could be wind blew it over or the soil gave way.

So not a yes or no answer Ken.
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Wow! That may be the lamest post I recall seeing on the Baptist Board in any forum in which I have read posts in recent memory.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
So much better when you use your God given free will not to do so.




The contradiction in your religion is clearly seen in those words Ken. Man cannot have a free will when according to your religion He determines all things.

You keep trying to avoid the problem with these long comments but bottom line is if God determines all things then it means He determines all things.
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Mans will isn't free from Gods Sovereign determinations, so man freely does what God predetermined for him to do. Like Adam and Eve, they freely sinned against God as it was predetermined by Him for them to do, and hold them accountable for it.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Mans will isn't free from Gods Sovereign determinations, so man freely does what God predetermined for him to do. Like Adam and Eve, they freely sinned against God as it was predetermined by Him for them to do, and hold them accountable for it.
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What you just admitted is that your version of god is unjust. He predetermines that a person will sin then judges them for the sin he made them do.

Your post is a study in contradictions.
1] so man freely does
2] what God predetermined for him to do

and then you repeated the error just to make sure your view was clear
1] Adam and Eve, they freely sinned
2] as it was predetermined by Him for them to do

You version of god then holds man responsible for the sins he predetermined for them to commit. Logically it is not by the free will of man but by the predetermination of God that all things happen. Free will in this case is just an illusion as even man's choices were necessitated. He could make no other choice in reality.

Now BF you may fallback and say they just choice there greatest desire. But what is their greatest desire but the one they chose so that is circular logic. Even that choice had to be necessitated. God is certain of the choice because He predetermined the choice.


Thankfully that is not the God of the bible.
Biblical foreknowledge does not necessitate but rather knows what the free will choices will be. God is Omniscient so has total knowledge thus can know what man will freely do without forcing him to do it. So the man not God is responsible for the choices they make.

God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He has given man the free will with which to make real choices.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
You comment sounded a lot like what a Deist would have written.
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That has got to be right up there with the lamest comments I have seen on this board in a long time.

You need God to predetermine all things or else He could not be God in your view. But then you show how inconsistent your view is when you say but He is not responsible for the sin that He has predetermined for man to commit.

Those of the C/R view do have a strange understanding of the word of God.
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
But then you show how inconsistent your view is when you say but He is not responsible for the sin that He has predetermined for man to commit.
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The apostle Paul sternly refuted your position long ago:

Romans 3:5-8 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say?
Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,)
Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Silverhair

What you just admitted is that your version of god is unjust.
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Im sorry you have this sentiment of the True God. Adam and Eve sinned freely with their own wills, nobody forced them to sin. Yet they only did what God had predetermined they should do. See before they were even created, God had already foreordained Christ to die for sin and redeem His chosen people 1 Peter 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

If Christ ws foreordained before the foundation by God, then surely Adam and Eve were foreordained after the creation to do that which made it necessary for Christ to have been foreordained before the foundation to do ! The word foreordained means also to to predestinate:

www.blueletterbible.org

G4267 - proginōskō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4267 - προγινώσκω proginṓskō, prog-in-oce'-ko; from and ; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:—foreknow (ordain), know (before).
www.blueletterbible.org www.blueletterbible.org
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Im sorry you have this sentiment of the True God.
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There are people who fall into the sentiment warned about in the old hymn, "God Moves in a Mysterious Way". To quote some portions of it:

"Deep in the dark and hidden mines,
With never-failing skill,
He fashions all His bright designs
And works His sov'reign will."

"Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
But trust Him for His grace."

"Blind unbelief is sure to err
And scan His work in vain.
God is His own interpreter,
And He will make it plain."
 
E

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
KenH said:
Not at all. Fallen mankind has always tried to pump up man's ability and downplay God's sovereignty. Fallen man recoils at the idea that he is not the captain of his own destiny.
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this is not the point at all

The point is God gave man free will

Man thus is responsible for his freedom of choice.

If God forced man to do only what God wanted apart from any human free will

logically then God can not hold that man accountable..
 
E

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
KenH said:
It is folks like Tozer who proclaims that God is less than sovereign, that somehow man is to some degree, sovereign.
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This makes no sense. Unlike God. Man is limited.. I may want or desire to purchase a million dollar home.. But my bank account may not let me.

This proves I am not sovereign
 
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