Not Everyone

[Charlie24]

Hello Charlie. Do you know that in eph 1 :3-14 is one whole sentence in the greek. Start at verse 3 and discover why people believe and see that it is the work of God before the world was, that enables such a belief. It does not start at verse 13 and go backwards, as you would have us do...ignore the first half of the sentence? No...we should rejoice and enjoy all of God's blessing to us.

Look guys, you can reject it, as I'm sure you will, but you can plainly see in Scripture that God has created man a free moral agent to choose his own way.

You can plainly see that through this gift from God, He doesn't always get His way with man.

I agree God is Sovereign over all things and matters in this universe, but He has blessed man by allowing him free choice.

 

[Zaatar71]

Spurgeon again;
They were not ashamed of the word in those days. They were not afraid to talk about it. Nowadays the word has been dressed up with diversities of meaning and persons have mutilated and marred the doctrine so that they have made it a very doctrine of devils.
When God’s Truth is stretched on the rack, we do not call it falsehood. We love not to see it racked but we love it even when racked because we can discern what its proper proportions ought to have been if it had not been racked and tortured by the cruelty and inventions of men.
If you will read many of the Epistles of the ancient fathers you will find them always writing to the people of God as the “elect.” Indeed the common conversational term used among many of the Churches by the primitive Christians to one another was that of the “elect.” They would often use the term to one another showing that it was generally believed that all God’s people were manifestly “elect.

 

[Charlie24]

Spurgeon again;
They were not ashamed of the word in those days. They were not afraid to talk about it. Nowadays the word has been dressed up with diversities of meaning and persons have mutilated and marred the doctrine so that they have made it a very doctrine of devils.
When God’s Truth is stretched on the rack, we do not call it falsehood. We love not to see it racked but we love it even when racked because we can discern what its proper proportions ought to have been if it had not been racked and tortured by the cruelty and inventions of men.
If you will read many of the Epistles of the ancient fathers you will find them always writing to the people of God as the “elect.” Indeed the common conversational term used among many of the Churches by the primitive Christians to one another was that of the “elect.” They would often use the term to one another showing that it was generally believed that all God’s people were manifestly “elect.

We must all make a very important decision in this life.

Is the God we serve a God that has chosen an elect group to be saved and left the rest to suffer in Hell.

Or is God One who desires all man to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth, giving man a choice to accept Him or suffer the consequences.

Even this is a choice that God has given to man, to decide the God we will serve.

 

[Zaatar71]

Look guys, you can reject it, as I'm sure you will, but you can plainly see in Scripture that God has created man a free moral agent to choose his own way.

We agree that man is a free moral agent, and can choose things, yes. Sin however has disrupted man in a way that cripples him and places him in bondage to sin and death. He cannot submit to God's word correctly. Have you seen this clear verse?
rom.:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[Do you see this last part? now look at what you have posted, and then look at what this verse says?] see why we post different things, you are suggesting that man by himself, can choose to be subject to the law of God...scripture says he cannot.

You can plainly see that through this gift from God, He doesn't always get His way with man.

God always get's His way..Isa, 46:9-11, psalm 115..read them, and let me know why you do not agree.

I agree God is Sovereign over all things and matters in this universe, but He has blessed man by allowing him free choice.

Again, man chooses according to his nature; have you noticed this verse?
Rom.6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

then here;22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

 

[Charlie24]

We agree that man is a free moral agent, and can choose things, yes. Sin however has disrupted man in a way that cripples him and places him in bondage to sin and death. He cannot submit to God's word correctly. Have you seen this clear verse?
rom.:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[Do you see this last part? now look at what you have posted, and then look at what this verse says?] see why we post different things, you are suggesting that man by himself, can choose to be subject to the law of God...scripture says he cannot.

God always get's His way..Isa, 46:9-11, psalm 115..read them, and let me know why you do not agree.

Again, man chooses according to his nature; have you noticed this verse?
Rom.6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

then here;22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

I don't know what Bible you're reading, it's surly not the one I read.

God does not always get His way with man, there is no excuse whatsoever to misunderstand this.

God has clearly, according to Scripture, commanded all men everywhere to repent, and we can plainly see that has not happened and will not happen.

All I can do is pray for you, @Zaatar71, that God will open to you the God He truly is, merciful and gracious toward mankind. Not willing that any should perish. But this is a choice you have made, may God help you.

 

[Zaatar71]

We must all make a very important decision in this life.

Is the God we serve a God that has chosen an elect group to be saved and left the rest to suffer in Hell.

Yes, he in Love elected a multitude of lost sinners to be the objects of His love. More than the stars of the heaven, or the sand of the sea.

Or is God One who desires all man to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth, giving man a choice to accept Him or suffer the consequences.

God desires all men from all tribes and nations to besaved, not every person ever bore, . Salvation is a work of God, not everyone is going to be saved. From post # 1, the first sentence; All men universally are not elected to salvation, it is undeniable from Scripture that God will not in the last day save every individual of mankind!

Even this is a choice that God has given to man, to decide the God we will serve.

The problem is sin. We make up our own god that does what we want him to do, but this is called an idol in scripture. We must worship the true and living god, who saves 100%. Thanks for those good questions.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, he in Love elected a multitude of lost sinners to be the objects of His love. More than the stars of the heaven, or the sand of the sea.

God desires all men from all tribes and nations to besaved, not every person ever bore, . Salvation is a work of God, not everyone is going to be saved. From post # 1, the first sentence; All men universally are not elected to salvation, it is undeniable from Scripture that God will not in the last day save every individual of mankind!

The problem is sin. We make up our own god that does what we want him to do, but this is called an idol in scripture. We must worship the true and living god, who saves 100%. Thanks for those good questions.

You're interrupting a promise I made to my God concerning my continuous anger management program with Him.

I tend to fall off the wagon from time to time, but I made a promise and intend to keep it to best of my ability by way of the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure you can understand why I have said what I have said and have nothing else to say.

 

[Zaatar71]

I don't know what Bible you're reading, it's surly not the one I read.

That is quite concerning! What version of the bible do you read?

God does not always get His way with man, there is no excuse whatsoever to misunderstand this.

Where are you getting this idea from? Could you direct me to where you think you see this?
Pharoah did not want to obey God, But God educated Pharoah on this.
Jonah did not want to obey God, but again sent a special teacher for Jonah.
What makes you think that God does not do with man exactly what he wants?
This King was given a vegan kind of diet for years, before he came to truth;
Dan.4:
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me;

God has clearly, according to Scripture, commanded all men everywhere to repent, and we can plainly see that has not happened and will not happen.

God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe, but He has also commanded that those who remain with a love of sin will be gather by the angels to be cast into second death. God is not worried about what to do with unrepentant sinners, because he never intended to save them.

All I can do is pray for you, @Zaatar71, that God will open to you the God He truly is, merciful and gracious toward mankind.

God is a Covenant making, and Covenant keeping God. Those outside the Covenant are passed over and remain in the realm of sin and death.

Not willing that any should perish.

God is very willing that many perish, see MT.7:21-24..He says depart from me, I never at any time knew you. However, not one of those elect persons will ever perish....again from post#1;
Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

But this is a choice you have made, may God help you.

from post #2;All men universally are not elected to salvation, it is undeniable from Scripture that God will not in the last day save every individual of mankind! (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 25:46; John 5:29. Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

You are not dealing with these posts.read them slowly, maybe that will let you see what they are pointing to.

 

[Zaatar71]

More from Spurgeon:
Turn to Acts 13:48: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” They may try to split that passage into hairs if they like—but it says, “ordained to eternal life” in the original as plainly as it possibly can.

And we do not care about all the different commentaries thereupon. You scarcely need to be reminded of Romans 8, because I trust you are all well-acquainted with that chapter and understand it by this time. In the 29th and following verses, it says, “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many Brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified and whom He justified, them He also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?

It would also be unnecessary to repeat the whole of the 9th chapter of Romans. As long as that remains in the Bible, no man shall be able to prove Arminianism. So long as that is written there, not the most violent contortions of the passage will ever be able to exterminate the doctrine of election from the Scriptures.

So we see that many who claim affinity to Spurgeon , really do not grasp that he was a full 5 point Calvinist.

 

[JonC]

All men universally are not elected to salvation, it is undeniable from Scripture that God will not in the last day save every individual of mankind! (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 25:46; John 5:29. Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

Jerome Zanchius​

Looking at the negative, I agree. The larger issue is Scripture also does not state that any person is elected to salvation.

What I mean is presenting one sect as unbiblical is meaningless if sect making the condemnation is just as unbiblical.

 

[Ben1445]

Being you enjoy Spurgeon; here is part of an intro to2 Thess2:13,14:
Now, first. I shall speak a little concerning the truthfulness of thisdoctrine—“God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation.”

Secondly, I shall try to prove that this election is absolute—“He has from the beginning chosen you to salvation,” not for sanctification,
but “through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

Thirdly, this election is eternal because the text says, “God has from the beginning chosen you.”

Fourthly, it is personal—“He has chosen you.”
Then we will look at the effects of the doctrine—see what it does.
And lastly, as God may enable us, we will try and look at its tendencies
and see whether it is indeed a terrible and licentious doctrine.

It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines which are called by nickname Calvinism but which are surely and verily the revealed Truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus.

“False Christs and false prophets shall rise and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.” “Then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost parts of the earth to the uttermost part of Heaven.”— Mark 13:20, 22, 27. “Shall not God avenge His own elect who cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them?”— Luke 18:7. Together with many other passages which might be selected, wherein either the word “elect,” or “chosen,” or “foreordained,” or “appointed,” is mentioned—or the phrase “My sheep,” or some similar designation, showing that Christ’s people are distinguished from the rest of mankind

 

[Ben1445]

Hello Ben, I quoted from a person who saw these truths in scripture before you or I were born. I enjoy and read Spurgeon quite a bit. Spurgeon agreed with what I have posted, so either you misread Spurgeon, or you are missing something. Is there something specific you did not agree with, maybe I can help you see where you have gone off track? Spurgeon was a full 5 pointer as you might not realize that. Your ideas that calvinists do not urge men to repent and believe the scriptures are not solidly based at all, in fact they are way off.

I posted a screenshot of what Spurgeon thinks of you and your “old” friends.

You don’t understand Spurgeon.

 

[Zaatar71]

Looking at the negative, I agree. The larger issue is Scripture also does not state that any person is elected to salvation.

What I mean is presenting one sect as unbiblical is meaningless if sect making the condemnation is just as unbiblical.

Earlier, Spurgeon had said this//Thirdly, this election is eternal because the text says, “God has from the beginning chosen you.”

Fourthly, it is personal—“He has chosen you.”. Also He quoted Romans 8 :29-30, where the Foreknow elect are individually and effectually drawn to a saving faith.

 

[JonC]

Earlier, Spurgeon had said this//Thirdly, this election is eternal because the text says, “God has from the beginning chosen you.”

Fourthly, it is personal—“He has chosen you.”. Also He quoted Romans 8 :29-30, where the Foreknow elect are individually and effectually drawn to a saving faith.

Yes. I like Spurgeon, especially since he also said he emphasizes some things at the expense of others, as is the human condition, and is dependent on understanding via his natural inclinations.

My argument was not that Spurgeon disbelieved the first post.

My statement is it has no more ground in Scrioture than does its opposition. It assumes the lost are elect. The opposing view is that Jesus is the Elect and men inheriting the state via Christ.

You seem to be thinking there is bit one way of interpreting the passages and seem not to recognize your assumptions.

 

[Zaatar71]

I posted a screenshot of what Spurgeon thinks of you and your “old” friends.

You don’t understand Spurgeon.

Lol, Spurgeon understood the Covenant salvation of the Elect of God. unlike you evidently. Nice screenshot, however you seemed to miss what was said to qualify it, Here I will help you out!

]It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved.]

[Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.]

Then again;
[There stands the text, and I believe that it is my Father's wish that "all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." But I know, also, that he does not will it, so that he will save any one of them, unless they believe in his dear Son; for he has told us over and over that he will not. He will not save any man except he forsakes his sins, and turns to him with full purpose of heart: that I also know. And I know, also, that he has a people whom he will save, whom by his eternal love he has chosen, and whom by his eternal power he will deliver. ]

So, nice try, but another fail on your part,

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes. I like Spurgeon, especially since he also said he emphasizes some things at the expense of others, as is the human condition, and is dependent on understanding via his natural inclinations.

My argument was not that Spurgeon disbelieved the first post.

My statement is it has no more ground in Scrioture than does its opposition. It assumes the lost are elect. The opposing view is that Jesus is the Elect and men inheriting the state via Christ.

You seem to be thinking there is bit one way of interpreting the passages and seem not to recognize your assumptions.

While Jesus is the elect servant,yes, Isa.42:42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

We as living stones are elect in Him from before the world was. Any who would deny that saving union are denying our Covenant making and keeping God.

 

[JonC]

While Jesus is the elect servant,yes, Isa.42:42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

We as living stones are elect in Him from before the world was. Any who would deny that saving union are denying our Covenant making and keeping God.

Yes, elect in Him. Obviously this excluded election to salvation.

I disagree that those who deny this saving union and instead believe men are elected to salvation are denying God. They simply read Scripture through their theology. While an error, it is not as severe as you make it to be. Calvinists can be Chriatian as well (I was both at one time).

 

[Ben1445]

Lol, Spurgeon understood the Covenant salvation of the Elect of God. unlike you evidently. Nice screenshot, however you seemed to miss what was said to qualify it, Here I will help you out!

]It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved.]

[Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.]

Then again;
[There stands the text, and I believe that it is my Father's wish that "all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." But I know, also, that he does not will it, so that he will save any one of them, unless they believe in his dear Son; for he has told us over and over that he will not. He will not save any man except he forsakes his sins, and turns to him with full purpose of heart: that I also know. And I know, also, that he has a people whom he will save, whom by his eternal love he has chosen, and whom by his eternal power he will deliver. ]

So, nice try, but another fail on your part,

Like I said, you quote Spurgeon but you ignore the parts of what he says that are not what you want to say. You don’t understand Spurgeon.

You have a miserable outlook on life and have a weird gloating about how God is not willing that all come to repentance.

 

[Silverhair]

All men universally are not elected to salvation, it is undeniable from Scripture that God will not in the last day save every individual of mankind! (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 25:46; John 5:29. Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

Jerome Zanchius​

It just takes one verse to show that view is wrong.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It would seem that Zanchius did not have that verse in his bible or more likely he just ignored it. But in either case his view is worthless and not biblical.

 

[Dave G]

Look guys, you can reject it, as I'm sure you will, but you can plainly see in Scripture that God has created man a free moral agent to choose his own way.

Yes, we sure did choose our own way, just as Paul told the believers at Rome under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

" And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." ( Romans 1:28-32 )

You can plainly see that through this gift from God, He doesn't always get His way with man.

His word says that He does ( Daniel 4:35 ).

I agree God is Sovereign over all things and matters in this universe, but He has blessed man by allowing him free choice.

Adam made that choice, and it only went downhill from there.
What's more, we would have done the same thing in his place.

Please read Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 3 again, Charlie. We really have put ourselves in a no-win situation, as a race...
We took that free choice to obey Him or to choose our own way, and look what it got us;
This is a miserable world, Charlie, and it's all our fault.

I'm also very glad that I have a new one to go to and it's all His doing... because He was not willing that any of the beloved perish, but that they all come to repentance. ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 )