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Charlie Kirk debates regarding the Pope & other
- Thread starter 37818
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Protestantism is truthy, but Catholicism is Truth.
It’s the many subjective interpretations and doctrines from the Bible that make Bible alone traditions truthy.
Catholicism not only determined and Canonised the first Bible, declaring it to all the world to be the Word of God, it maintains the singular interpretation of it from the Apostles, which is the Truth.
It’s the many subjective interpretations and doctrines from the Bible that make Bible alone traditions truthy.
Catholicism not only determined and Canonised the first Bible, declaring it to all the world to be the Word of God, it maintains the singular interpretation of it from the Apostles, which is the Truth.
37818
Well-Known Member
Of course as you are persuaded it to be in your views.
But not where Truth is being denied.
The 66 books of the Holy Bible were Holy when they were written.
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God’s Word is Truth. Catholicism is another religion made up of people who study Truth and don’t always get everything right because just like Protestants, Catholics, and “I’ve never been either of those,” we are all people who don’t always think like God. We don’t always get everything right.
Catholicism is not Truth. Catholicism is a religion. It also has difficulty, as all people, claiming to adhere to Christ's definition of pure and undefiled religion.
The pastor, unfortunately, has crossed a line and essentually condemned Christ.
Form all I have seen I do not doubt that Charlie Kirk was a Christian, but ultimately God only knows. From what I have heard of him he did share the gospel, although not on a level one might expect from a theologian.
That said, I have also noticed a problem with how many "Christians" are reacting to Kirk now that he has been murdered. The pastor is right on this point.
I have seen "Christians" saying "Charlie Kirk lives in all of us", and attributing people flocking to church because that is what Kirk would want of them.
The 72 books of the Bible were inspired when they were written, but the Catholic Church determined the canonical 27 New Testament books. Historical fact.
37818
Well-Known Member
The 27 New Testament books were being used in the genuine Christian churches before the 2nd Century. And are today our sole Apostolic authority in the faith and practice.
Our 66 book Holy Bible are what we believe in in common.
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Not really. The NT canon was already accepted by the churches long before the Catholic religion was started. Churches were all independent until AD 313--fact! It is impossible to prove a Catholic religion before then. Newsflash: there is no evidence whatsoever that Peter was any kind of "pope." Read Eusebius, for example, or any of the early church fathers.
NSH
New Member
scripture itself says Jesus is Truth . . . so both cannot be true in a purely logical world construct. Unless we are talking in symbols. If we are talking about the symbol of truth (and it seems to be the way you are using it) it is just the 'idea' of what truth represents in a given context. Jesus saying "I am the Truth" breaks all symbolic contexts and presents something harder to grapple with: the very fabric of what is right is the Son of God himself.
This truth that Jesus is, is different than the truth of protestant vs catholic because there is no opposing position to Jesus being truth.
Got to stop you there John. All the Church Fathers writings from the first century onwards only come down to us from the lineage in the Catholic Church, which means they were all Catholic. One, Catholic, Apostolic Church.
These same Catholic sources are the ones that preserved the scriptures from the Apostles and it was these Catholics that assembled the first Canon of Apostolic writings and called it the Bible.
There were 53 books claiming to be Gospels and countless others claimed to be from Apostolic sources, but Catholic Tradition preserved only the true writings handed down.
Professor Peter Flint RIP, very smart Baptist translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls, brilliant lecturer, you need watch his lectures, said. “ Without the Catholic Church, we would have no Bible “.
The “ Bible “ is entirely Catholic.
If Protestants or Baptist’s existed in the Early Church and had Sproulinius disciple of John, Fullerinas of Antioch, Daggeaus of Jerusalem. All handing down and preserving the scriptures and assembling the first Bible, I would be Protestant or Baptist. But the Bible didn’t come to us from Protestantism or Baptist’s.
The thing that keeps me Catholic is the fact that the Bible itself is entirely Catholic in origin by the Grace of God. Instead Catholics like Ignatius, Clement, Irenaeus, Jerome, Augustine are the Apostolic lineage.
The human founded traditions of Protestantism or Baptist’s didn’t exist and had nothing to do with the preservation of the scriptures or canonisation of the Bible. This was all done by Catholics.
The other thing that confirms it is the incredible corruption and stupidity of people in the Catholic Church over 2000 years, and it still stands when nothing else that age exists. Whole nations, governments and empires, every institution of men have risen and fallen many times over, yet the Catholic Church remains. This can only be explained by God’s Grace and the promise of Christ that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.
I don't maintain that there were Protestants or Baptists in the early church, only that there were independent churches. There were also no Catholics. This is easily verified by paying attention to the pastors who attended the council of 313. None were said to rule any other churches. All were independent. There was no hierarchy, something that is a sine qua non for giving an early date to the founding of Catholicism.
The apostolic lineage, yes. A so-called Catholic lineage, no. I have two editions of the ECF, and have read them both: Early Christian Writings, translated by Maxwell Staniforth, and The Apostolic Fathers, translated by J. B. Lightfoot. You mention Ignatius and Clement. Please find somewhere in their writings where one church is over any other, as in the Catholic hierarchy. I challenge you to show me in the ECF where any church is listed as having dominion over any other. If you find no such dominion in the ECF, it did not exist for the first centuries; ergo, there was no Roman Catholic Church yet.
As for Augustine (354-430), he didn't even minister until the late 4th century. I respect Jerome (340-420) as a linguist and Bible translator, but he also is too late to use for any argument that the RCC existed in the first four centuries. Some put the origin of Catholicism in Augustine. True, the RCC followed his theology to a degree, but I find no proof that he influenced the choosing of the canon as you seem to say. He lived too late for that.
Frankly, I put the origin of the RCC with Gregory the Great (540-604). Just look at all the things he instituted, a veritable definition of Catholicism:
“penance,” almsgiving, ascetic practices, the veneration and intercession of the saints, Purgatory, transubstantiation. Also, “Gregory encouraged the collection and veneration of holy remains of the saints and martyrs: locks of hair, fingernails, toes, pieces of clothing.” (Bruce Shelley, Church History in Plain Language, 5th ed., 180).
Again, Gregory was the first so-called "pope" to exercise authority over other churches. "
He sought to tighten control over the Eastern form of Christianity. “He claimed and exercised, as far as he had the opportunity and power, the oversight over the whole church of Christ”(Shelley, 4th ed., 177).
Prove that there was a Catholic hierarchy when the canon was completed.
Buddhism has been around much longer than Catholicism, since "the Buddha" lived hundreds of years BC. And it has also had "incredible corruption and stupidity." So length of time proves nothing.
“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).
What does Irenaeus call this Rome based Church that every Church must by necessity agree with.
“While the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).
Tertullian says the same in 200 ad.
“they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus” Against heretics 22;30
Cyprian calls the Church Catholic.
”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).
What else does Cyprian say about this “ Catholic “ Church in 250 ad.
“And he says to him again after the resurrection, ‘Feed my sheep.’ It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided.” Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).
Cyprian’s “Catholic” Church is lead by The Chair of Peter. What else does Bishop Cyprian of Carthage say about this Catholic Church lead by the Chair of Peter.
“After such things as these, moreover, they still dare–a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics–to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the Throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.” Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252).
So in 250 ad, Cyprian the Bishop of the Church in Carthage Africa, believes in a “Catholic” Church, which is lead by The “Chair of Peter” which located in Rome.
Sounds exactly like Irenaeus’ 180 ad Roman Catholic Church that every Church by necessity must agree.
”The reason for your absence was both honorable and imperative, that the schismatic wolves might not rob and plunder by stealth nor the heretical dogs bark madly in the rapid fury nor the very serpent, the devil, discharge his blasphemous venom. So it seems to us right and altogether fitting that priests of the Lord from each and every province should report to their head, that is, to the See of Peter, the Apostle.” Council of Sardica, To Pope Julius (A.D. 342).
Irenaeus 180 ad says that the Roman Church founded by Peter and Paul has preeminent Authority, and every church must by necessity agree with this Church. He calls this Church the Catholic Church, possessing one and same faith throughout the world.
Cyprian Bishop of Carthage 250 ad, calls the Church Catholic, under the Chair of Peter, in Rome.
I don’t think you have read the Church Fathers well John, you need to look in depth, and at the implications of what they are saying.
Haven’t you heard of the decree of Pope Damasus. 382 Ad
"Likewise it has been said: now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun:”
Then lists off the 73 book Canon for the first Bible.
Buddhism has not existed as a singular institution, or government.
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At approximately 2:40 - 2:42 Charlie Kirk says "bring people to Catholicism is fine" and at 4:20 - 4:23 he says he believes Catholics are Christian.
I am surprised he takes those positions.
Are Catholics Born Again?
"When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during (water) baptism."
I am surprised he takes those positions.
Are Catholics Born Again?
"When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during (water) baptism."
“Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail” Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D. 393).
“I am held in the communion of the Catholic Church by…and by the succession of bishops from the very seat of Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection commended His sheep to be fed up to the present episcopate.” Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, 5 (A.D. 395).
“Carthage was also near the countries over the sea, and distinguished by illustrious renown, so that it had a bishop of more than ordinary influence, who could afford to disregard a number of conspiring enemies because he saw himself joined by letters of communion to the Roman Church, in which the supremacy of an apostolic chair has always flourished.” Augustine, To Glorius et.al, Epistle 43:7 (A.D. 397).
“The chair of the Roman Church, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today.” Augustine, Against the Letters of Petillian, 2:51 (A.D. 402).
“I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul…The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord, bears fruit an hundredfold…My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15:1-2 (A.D. 375).
"Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master? And so that this most august proclamation might be told in full, how do they have hope, who are praying for the brethren as if they were but sojourning in a foreign land? Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf, even if it does not force back the whole of guilty charges laid to them." Epiphanius 377 Ad Against Heresies.
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers. But it is done in such a way that our altars are not set up to any one of the martyrs,- although in their memory,- but to God Himself, the God of those martyrs...That worship, which the Greeks call Latria and for which there is in Latin no single term, and which is expressive of the subjection owed to Divinity alone, we neither accord nor teach that it should be accorded to any save to the one God." Augustine 400 Ad.
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard; and this is especially clear since the martyrs, though they cry vengeance for their own blood, have never been able to obtain their request. But if the Apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs." Jerome 406 Ad
“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).
“Other husbands scatter on the graves of their wives violets, roses, lilies, and purple flowers; and assuage the grief of their hearts by fulfilling this tender duty. Our dear Pammachius also waters the holy ashes and the revered bones of Paulina, but it is with the balm of almsgiving.” Jerome, To Pammachius, Epistle 66:5 (A.D. 397).
“Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, “Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.” Mourn for those who have died in wealth, and did not from their wealth think of any solace for their soul, who had power to wash away their sins and would not. Let us all weep for these in private and in public, but with propriety, with gravity, not so as to make exhibitions of ourselves; let us weep for these, not one day, or two, but all our life. Such tears spring not from senseless passion, but from true affection. The other sort are of senseless passion. For this cause they are quickly quenched, whereas if they spring from the fear of God, they always abide with us. Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Phillipians, 3 (ante A.D. 404).
“If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not–provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever–no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works.” Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).
“Now on what ground does this person pray that he may not be ‘rebuked in indignation, nor chastened in hot displeasure”? He speaks as if he would say unto God, ‘Since the things which I already suffer are many in number, I pray Thee let them suffice;’ and he begins to enumerate them, by way of satisfying God; offering what he suffers now, that he may not have to suffer worse evils hereafter.” Augustine, Exposition of the Psalms, 38(37):3 (A.D. 418).
“And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they ‘shall not inherit the kingdom of God,’ unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say ‘suitable,’ I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom,” and to the latter, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'” Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).
“During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man’s death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth.” Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).
Purgatory, almsgiving, veneration of saints, intercession for and by the departed saints all before Pope Gregory.
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Water Baptism being Regenerational was Universal Christian belief for the first 1500 years, even Luther and Calvin believed it.
It was only when the human tradition of Ulrich Zwingli first denied it that the heresy of believers baptism was founded.
Zwingli was the Apostle of this false gospel teaching.
Irenaeus 125 Ad- 202 ad, is an amazing witness, and Bishop closely related to the Apostolic time.
He says the Roman Church founded by Peter and Paul with its succession of Bishops has preeminent Authority, and every Church Church must agree with it by necessity.
Irenaeus knew and learned from Polycarp the disciple of John the Apostle.
“For I have a more vivid recollection of what occurred at that time than of recent events … so that I can even describe the place where the Blessed Polycarp used to sit and discourse — his going out, too, and his coming in— his general mode of life and personal appearance, together with the discourses which he delivered to the people; also how he would speak of his familiar intercourse with John, and with the rest of those who had seen the Lord; and how he would call their words to remembrance. Whatsoever things he had heard from them respecting the Lord, both with regard to His miracles and His teaching, Polycarp having thus received from the eye-witnesses of the Word of life, would recount them all in harmony with the Scriptures. These things, through God’s mercy which was upon me, I then listened to attentively, and treasured them up not on paper, but in my heart; and I am continually, by God’s grace, revolving these things accurately in my mind.” Irenaeus 180 ad.
“But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,— a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles — that, namely, which is handed down by the Church.” Irenaeus 180ad
John was writing to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna in Revelation.
“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.” Revelation 2
So when Irenaeus is saying that Peter and Paul founded the Church in Rome, and that by its succession of bishops has preeminent Authority, that all Churches must agree with it, he not just saying it without witness.
Irenaeus who says that the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith through the world.
Irenaeus learned diligently and directly from Polycarp Bishop of Smyrna appointed by Apostles, and direct disciple of John the Apostle.
John himself writes to Polycarp in Revelation, as the Angel of the Church in Smyrna. God speaking to Polycarp in Scripture.
He says the Roman Church founded by Peter and Paul with its succession of Bishops has preeminent Authority, and every Church Church must agree with it by necessity.
Irenaeus knew and learned from Polycarp the disciple of John the Apostle.
“For I have a more vivid recollection of what occurred at that time than of recent events … so that I can even describe the place where the Blessed Polycarp used to sit and discourse — his going out, too, and his coming in— his general mode of life and personal appearance, together with the discourses which he delivered to the people; also how he would speak of his familiar intercourse with John, and with the rest of those who had seen the Lord; and how he would call their words to remembrance. Whatsoever things he had heard from them respecting the Lord, both with regard to His miracles and His teaching, Polycarp having thus received from the eye-witnesses of the Word of life, would recount them all in harmony with the Scriptures. These things, through God’s mercy which was upon me, I then listened to attentively, and treasured them up not on paper, but in my heart; and I am continually, by God’s grace, revolving these things accurately in my mind.” Irenaeus 180 ad.
“But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,— a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles — that, namely, which is handed down by the Church.” Irenaeus 180ad
John was writing to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna in Revelation.
“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.” Revelation 2
So when Irenaeus is saying that Peter and Paul founded the Church in Rome, and that by its succession of bishops has preeminent Authority, that all Churches must agree with it, he not just saying it without witness.
Irenaeus who says that the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith through the world.
Irenaeus learned diligently and directly from Polycarp Bishop of Smyrna appointed by Apostles, and direct disciple of John the Apostle.
John himself writes to Polycarp in Revelation, as the Angel of the Church in Smyrna. God speaking to Polycarp in Scripture.
Jesus is speaking to Polycarp in Revelation by John’s hand. Which I always found emotional.
“These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.”
“9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.”
Polycarp did win the Crown of martyrdom in 155 Ad as the Lord said, but not before instructing Irenaeus who passes on the same teaching from Polycarp.
“These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.”
“9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.”
Polycarp did win the Crown of martyrdom in 155 Ad as the Lord said, but not before instructing Irenaeus who passes on the same teaching from Polycarp.
“For the blessed apostle Paul himself, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes only by name to seven Churches in the following order–to the Corinthians afirst…there is a second to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians, yet one Church is recognized as being spread over the entire world…Howbeit to Philemon one, to Titus one, and to Timothy two were put in writing…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).
The Catholic Church preserved and catalogued the true scriptures in its tradition of father’s passing them on through great persecutions and heresies.
Many writings were rejected by the Catholic Church, 50 plus writings claiming to be gospels.
So the scriptures were Catholic Tradition before they were first Canonised as the Bible by the Catholic Church.
That’s what the Catholic Church does, canonise things, including the Bible.
“Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books, Paralipomenon two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book, likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus one book. Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book,with Ginoth, that is, with his lamentations, Ezechiel one book,Daniel one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books, Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books. Likewise the order of the writings of the New and eternal Testament, which only the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke one book, according to John one book. The Epistles of Paul [the apostle] in number fourteen. To the Romans one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians two, to the Galatians one, to the Philippians one, to the Colossians one, to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one. Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles one book. Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealut, the Apostle one epistle.” Pope Damasus (regn. A.D. 366-384), Decree of the Council of Rome, The Canon of Scripture (A.D. 382).
The first Bible.
“The authority of our books [Scriptures], which is confirmed by agreement of so many nations, supported by a succession of apostles, bishops, and councils, is against you.” Augustine, Reply to Faustus the Manichean, 13:5 (c. A.D. 400).
“If any one shall say, or shall believe, that other Scriptures, besides those which the Catholic Church has received, are to be esteemed of authority, or to be venerated, let him be anathema.” Council of Toledo, Canon 12 (A.D. 400).
This is Pope Innocent confirming the Canon definitively to a bishop in France. 405 Ad.
“A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are the desiderata of which you wished to be informed verbally: of Moses five books, that is, of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numbers, of Deuteronomy, and Josue, of Judges one book, of Kings four books, also Ruth, of the Prophets sixteen books, of Solomon five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job one book, of Tobias one book, Esther one, Judith one, of the Machabees two, of Esdras two, Paralipomenon two books. Likewise of the New Testament: of the Gospels four books, of Paul the Apostle fourteen epistles, of John three, epistles of Peter two, an epistle of Jude, an epistle of James, the Acts of the Apostles, the Apocalypse of John.” Pope Innocent (regn. A.D. 401-417), Epistle to Exsuperius Bishop of Toulose, 6:7,13 (A.D. 405).
The Bible is the Catholic Church’s Book, from its preservation as disparate writings from Apostolic times to its canonisation hundreds of years later.
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Charlie Kirk attended Mass and prayed the Rosary at Saint Bernadette’s Catholic Church, Scottsdale, Arizona.