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Saved By Law?
- Thread starter MrW
- Start date
There is righteousness in the Law, Christ proved that.
Paul said that God sent His Son to condemn sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us.
The problem for us is that we can't keep the Law perfectly as Christ did.
The Law can only be fulfilled in us by faith in Christ and what He did for us at Calvary.
From a friend: Jesus was very clear when he said, ". . . I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) There is no reason for telling us to take the gospel into all the world (Mat. 28:18-20), if God has plans to save people without the gospel.
The heathen are commonly spoken of as "the heathen who've never heard," but this is usually a mistake. They might not have heard a clear presentation of the gospel of Christ, but the notion that they are like innocent little children with no concept of right and wrong is false. People everywhere have a conscience that develops and matures with age, and usually before adulthood they have a basic knowledge of good and evil. That's why they have their own laws about theft, murder and other evils, even without the influence of Christian missionaries and Bibles. Paul said this is due to their God-given conscience: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (Rom. 2:14-15)
This means that the unreached masses have heard more than people realize, because they've heard the still small voice of God speaking through their conscience. They have also heard the voice of nature telling them of God's existence as Creator. Psalms 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world . . ." (Psa. 19:1-4)
All of this means that man is without excuse and cannot plead total innocence. Not having heard the gospel doesn't mean that man hasn't heard anything. He's heard enough truth through conscience and nature to develop a response to that truth, and God holds him accountable for it. Paul addresses this in Romans 2:6-11: "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."
As we know, "eternal life" is only available through Jesus Christ (John 10:28-29; 14:6); so Paul is saying that God delivers truth to those who with a good conscience seek for it. Jesus said, "seek, and ye shall find" (Mat. 7:7), and he said, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." (Mat. 5:6) People everywhere receive at least some light from God (John 1:9), and if they follow that light and seek additional light, then God gives more light and eventually the gospel, if their seeking continues. If not, he eventually sends wrath (Rom. 2:8-9).
The truth of God is a path that everyone chooses or rejects, and it leads to Jesus Christ, even when it doesn't start with Christ. To reject this path is, in essence, to reject the way to Christ, and this is what most people do. Every heart has heard the words "This is the way, walk ye in it" (Isa. 30:21), so everyone is without excuse, because there are no heathen who have never heard.
The heathen are commonly spoken of as "the heathen who've never heard," but this is usually a mistake. They might not have heard a clear presentation of the gospel of Christ, but the notion that they are like innocent little children with no concept of right and wrong is false. People everywhere have a conscience that develops and matures with age, and usually before adulthood they have a basic knowledge of good and evil. That's why they have their own laws about theft, murder and other evils, even without the influence of Christian missionaries and Bibles. Paul said this is due to their God-given conscience: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (Rom. 2:14-15)
This means that the unreached masses have heard more than people realize, because they've heard the still small voice of God speaking through their conscience. They have also heard the voice of nature telling them of God's existence as Creator. Psalms 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world . . ." (Psa. 19:1-4)
All of this means that man is without excuse and cannot plead total innocence. Not having heard the gospel doesn't mean that man hasn't heard anything. He's heard enough truth through conscience and nature to develop a response to that truth, and God holds him accountable for it. Paul addresses this in Romans 2:6-11: "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."
As we know, "eternal life" is only available through Jesus Christ (John 10:28-29; 14:6); so Paul is saying that God delivers truth to those who with a good conscience seek for it. Jesus said, "seek, and ye shall find" (Mat. 7:7), and he said, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." (Mat. 5:6) People everywhere receive at least some light from God (John 1:9), and if they follow that light and seek additional light, then God gives more light and eventually the gospel, if their seeking continues. If not, he eventually sends wrath (Rom. 2:8-9).
The truth of God is a path that everyone chooses or rejects, and it leads to Jesus Christ, even when it doesn't start with Christ. To reject this path is, in essence, to reject the way to Christ, and this is what most people do. Every heart has heard the words "This is the way, walk ye in it" (Isa. 30:21), so everyone is without excuse, because there are no heathen who have never heard.
Of course you won't agree, K
Paul is not saying the doers of Law will be justified, he makes it clear in several verses no one can be justified by the works of Law.
He is making the point that fallen man cannot keep the Law. In the sense that the hearers of Law must also keep the Law, but we know fallen man can't do that.
There is righteousness in the Law but only Christ was able to achieve it.
No. That most certainly is NOT the point Paul is making.
Romans Chapter 2
14 | (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; |
15 | in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); |
Circumcised hearts with the law written upon it do by nature the things of the law.
No sir, Paul is not speaking of salvation for these Gentiles by showing the Law written in their hearts.
Paul is saying these Gentiles are not without light, and have no excuse.
He mentions the conscience that bears witness to right and wrong, this is not salvation.
This is pointing to salvation by faith in the Creator, has nothing to do with salvation through any kind of works.
<sigh> Once again, this is NOT about 'salvation', it's justification.
There's two hearts in Romans 2.
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
No, K.
Through the conscience man is pointed to God, just as the Law pointed to Christ.
When Paul wrote the Book of Romans there were many Gentiles at this time who never heard the Gospel.
But they had a conscience that gave them some sense of right and wrong.
Paul mentions them accusing one another, this is man rejecting his conscience in wrong and right, and accusing others for it without coming to the acknowledgment of a Creator. They reject the moral issues of their actions thereby rejecting God.
Plus, no one can be saved without being justified by God.
In similarity to the Gentiles who had a conscience, the Jews had the Law.
No one had to tell the Jews they couldn't keep the Law perfectly, if they were honest with themselves they knew they weren't keeping the Law.
This pointed to Christ in the Law for salvation.
But with the Gentile who had no Gospel knowledge, no one had to him he was doing wrong, his conscience was bearing witness of that, and just as the Jew with the Law, man had to come to terms with His actions being honest with himself.
Romans Chapter 2
15 | in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); |
Romans Chapter 9
1 | I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, |
K, they could not be justified with acknowledging God!
The Gentiles without the Gospel could be justified by admitting to themselves they were doing wrong and knowing their had to be a Creator by the presence of creation itself.
Either God sent someone to this person who was honest in heart to give his the Gospel or God declared this person righteous based on his admitting he was a sinner and acknowledged God as the Creator and the answer to his problem.
There's much debate on this.
<sigh> God acknowledged them FIRST by quickening them and writing the law in their hearts (a New Covenant promise), but CDS quacks like you will never acknowledge God does that.
Lol. Ok, we disagree and that's that.
But I will say the bottom line to our disagreement is your 5 points, and my Grace offered to man with free will.
How'd 'the five points' come into this?
Like I said. CDS quack.
There's probably medication that could help, but you first must recognize your problem.
The 5 points are plain to see for me!
You are suggesting salvation (the Law written in their hearts), through the Law with no repenting and acknowledging belief.