Thoughts on John 19:30

[Van]

John 19:30 NASB
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

1) When a bible student sees the word, "Therefore" we are trained to ask the question, "To what does the "therefore" refer?

2) In the phrase, "It is finished" the answer to the question, "What is the "it," is not provided.

So we have an ambiguous and vague verse into which some are tempted to read into the text whatever flips their switch.

In verse John 19:28 we see that all [of an unstated set of things] had been accomplished.

In verses 23 and 24 we see that some of the things prophesied in scripture had been fulfilled, and then Jesus asked for a drink to fulfill Psalms 69:21.

But it is possible the "it" included more that fulfilling the Messianic prophecies, having to do with providing the means of reconciliation and revealing God and His will for humanity.

Other possible fulfillments include, His suffering during His life and crucifixion. It is speculation as to just who would be "drawn" (attracted) by Christ's crucifixion, as scripture just says "all" and others add "people, or peoples or men. Best guess, all people who hear and heed the gospel.

When Jesus physically died on the cross, His sacrifice provided the means of carrying away the consequence on anyone's sins, thus those of us who have been saved have had our sins carried away in His body.

Jesus was treated as sin on the cross, but He did not become sin as He was just rather than unjust.

Jesus cried out My God, why have You forsaken Me, to fulfill prophecy, not because He had been made sin. God can look on the just!

Jesus is not a "covering" for our sin, Jesus has removed the consequence of our sin, if we have received the reconciliation provided by Christ, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[kyredneck]

“Therefore My father loves Me, because I lay down My lifew that In may take it up again. No one takes it from Me but I lay it down of Myself” (John 10:17-18).

The Entity that spake these words:

17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. Jn 10

...is the very same Entity that spake these words:

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

 

[Martin Marprelate]

First of all, writing in big print does not make one's argument any stronger.

John 19:30 NASB
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

1) When a bible student sees the word, "Therefore" we are trained to ask the question, "To what does the "therefore" refer?

'Therefore' applies to verses 28 & 29: 'After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished.....' After fulfilling the last prophecy concerning Him that could be fulfilled before His death, He could now return to the Father. "I have finished the work you gave Me to do" (John 17:4). So that is what the 'therefore' means.

2) In the phrase, "It is finished" the answer to the question, "What is the "it," is not provided.

So we have an ambiguous and vague verse into which some are tempted to read into the text whatever flips their switch.

In verse John 19:28 we see that all [of an unstated set of things] had been accomplished.

In verses 23 and 24 we see that some of the things prophesied in scripture had been fulfilled, and then Jesus asked for a drink to fulfill Psalms 69:21.

But it is possible the "it" included more that fulfilling the Messianic prophecies, having to do with providing the means of reconciliation and revealing God and His will for humanity.

Other possible fulfillments include, His suffering during His life and crucifixion. It is speculation as to just who would be "drawn" (attracted) by Christ's crucifixion, as scripture just says "all" and others add "people, or peoples or men. Best guess, all people who hear and heed the gospel.

See the O.P. which I think covers most, if not all the remarks you have made here.

When Jesus physically died on the cross, His sacrifice provided the means of carrying away the consequence on anyone's sins, thus those of us who have been saved have had our sins carried away in His body.

I disagree that the Lord Jesus' death provided the 'means' of anything. He has provided atonement for all for whom He died. It seems that your preferred Bible translation is the NASB, which is fine. I looked up 'propitiation' in 1 John 2:2, and in the margin, the 1995 version (the only one I have) gives 'satisfaction.' On the cross our Lord satsified the outraged justice of God against the sins of His people. God is propitiated towards them. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing but raise it up at the last day" (John 6:39).

Jesus was treated as sin on the cross, but He did not become sin as He was just rather than unjust.

He was made sin (2 Cor. 5:21). He did not become a sinner - He was never that - but all our sins were laid upon Him, and He bore them, and the curse attached to them, on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

Jesus cried out My God, why have You forsaken Me, to fulfill prophecy, not because He had been made sin. God can look on the just!

The Lord Jesus was bearing our sin, and God, whose eyes are too pure to look upon sin, turned away from Him until propitiation had been made and the Lord Jesus could cry, "It is finished."

Jesus is not a "covering" for our sin, Jesus has removed the consequence of our sin, if we have received the reconciliation provided by Christ, having nailed it to the cross.

That is correct. In the O.T. the word kaphar which is usually translated as 'atonement,' literally means 'covering.' The O.T. sacrifices provided a covering for the sins of believers until such time as the Messiah should come and make full atonement (Romans 3:25).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Entity that spake these words:

17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. Jn 10

...is the very same Entity that spake these words:

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

I will just repeat what I said to @Van: writing in big print does not make what you say any more correct.
Obviously I agree with all the Scripture you have posted, none of which, of course, contradicts Isaiah 53:10 and Acts 4:28, but I note that there is no mention of Satan in any of them.

 

[Van]

First of all, writing in big print does not make one's argument any stronger.

'Therefore' applies to verses 28 & 29: 'After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished.....' After fulfilling the last prophecy concerning Him that could be fulfilled before His death, He could now return to the Father. "I have finished the work you gave Me to do" (John 17:4). So that is what the 'therefore' means.

See the O.P. which I think covers most, if not all the remarks you have made here.

I disagree that the Lord Jesus' death provided the 'means' of anything. He has provided atonement for all for whom He died. It seems that your preferred Bible translation is the NASB, which is fine. I looked up 'propitiation' in 1 John 2:2, and in the margin, the 1995 version (the only one I have) gives 'satisfaction.' On the cross our Lord satsified the outraged justice of God against the sins of His people. God is propitiated towards them. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing but raise it up at the last day" (John 6:39).

He was made sin (2 Cor. 5:21). He did not become a sinner - He was never that - but all our sins were laid upon Him, and He bore them, and the curse attached to them, on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

The Lord Jesus was bearing our sin, and God, whose eyes are too pure to look upon sin, turned away from Him until propitiation had been made and the Lord Jesus could cry, "It is finished."

That is correct. In the O.T. the word kaphar which is usually translated as 'atonement,' literally means 'covering.' The O.T. sacrifices provided a covering for the sins of believers until such time as the Messiah should come and make full atonement (Romans 3:25).

I) In my declining years, my vision is deteriorating, thus I often increase the size of the fount. Thus you charge I do it to add to my argument is false. Whereas your effort at disparagement is the fallacious against the person ploy.

2) To claim the "therefore" only applies to the prior two verses, rather than the context of fulfillment is ludicrous.

3) Yes, your OP accurately covered a lot of ground, I am addressing where, in my opinion you missed the mark.

4) I can say nothing more when you claim Christ did not provide the means of reconciliation. You ignore the need for folks to "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ.

5) Those given to Christ (John 6:37) refers to those God transfers into Christ (Colossians 1:13). That transfer, called redemption, removes people from the realm of darkness, in Adam so to speak, and puts them in Christ, who is the means of reconciliation before transfer, and the reconciliation once transferred.

6) All the sin of those supposedly chosen before creation was NOT laid on Christ. Christ removes the sin burden of everyone God transfers into Him via the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.

7) Once again, you use the OT to interpret the NT, rather than the correct hermeneutic which is to interpret the OT in light of the NT. The Greek word translated "atonement" in the NT is "Katallage" (G2643) and appears in Romans 5:11, Romans 11:15,
2 Corinthians 5:18 and 19. Even the KJV translates the word as "reconciliation" in 2 Corinthians 5:18 and 19, but goes astray using "atonement" and a grammatical transformation changing the word into a verb "the reconciling." But the actual word refers to a change in position, i.e. reconciliation. See ESV, NASB, or YLT.

 

[37818]

In short John 19:30, . . . It is finished . . . , refers back to John 19:28, . . . were . . . accomplished, . . . .

See @Van's post #21.

 

[kyredneck]

I note that there is no mention of Satan in any of them.

Are you still unwilling to see it, or to admit it?

37 I know that ye are Abraham`s seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

Satan murdered Christ through his seed, his own here on earth, just as was foretold:

:14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

The scripture makes no bones about who killed Christ:

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I) In my declining years, my vision is deteriorating, thus I often increase the size of the fount. Thus you charge I do it to add to my argument is false. Whereas your effort at disparagement is the fallacious against the person ploy.

2) To claim the "therefore" only applies to the prior two verses, rather than the context of fulfillment is ludicrous.

3) Yes, your OP accurately covered a lot of ground, I am addressing where, in my opinion you missed the mark.

4) I can say nothing more when you claim Christ did not provide the means of reconciliation. You ignore the need for folks to "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ.

5) Those given to Christ (John 6:37) refers to those God transfers into Christ (Colossians 1:13). That transfer, called redemption, removes people from the realm of darkness, in Adam so to speak, and puts them in Christ, who is the means of reconciliation before transfer, and the reconciliation once transferred.

6) All the sin of those supposedly chosen before creation was NOT laid on Christ. Christ removes the sin burden of everyone God transfers into Him via the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.

7) Once again, you use the OT to interpret the NT, rather than the correct hermeneutic which is to interpret the OT in light of the NT. The Greek word translated "atonement" in the NT is "Katallage" (G2643) and appears in Romans 5:11, Romans 11:15,
2 Corinthians 5:18 and 19. Even the KJV translates the word as "reconciliation" in 2 Corinthians 5:18 and 19, but goes astray using "atonement" and a grammatical transformation changing the word into a verb "the reconciling." But the actual word refers to a change in position, i.e. reconciliation. See ESV, NASB, or YLT.

Are you still unwilling to see it, or to admit it?

37 I know that ye are Abraham`s seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

Satan murdered Christ through his seed, his own here on earth, just as was foretold:

:14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

The scripture makes no bones about who killed Christ:

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

Yep! Nothing to say that the devil had anything to do with our Lord's death on the cross. Nice Scripture though.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I) In my declining years, my vision is deteriorating, thus I often increase the size of the fount. Thus you charge I do it to add to my argument is false. Whereas your effort at disparagement is the fallacious against the person ploy.

I doubt you are much older than Iam (73), but if your eyesight is defective, then by all means use a bigger font, and please accept my apologies.

2) To claim the "therefore" only applies to the prior two verses, rather than the context of fulfillment is ludicrous.

I don't think it is. Our Lord knew that everything was accomplished (from the Greek teleo), so He declared, "It is finished!" (from the Greek teleo).

3) Yes, your OP accurately covered a lot of ground, I am addressing where, in my opinion you missed the mark.

It would be helpful if you quoted my words that you disagree with so that I can reply accurately.

4) I can say nothing more when you claim Christ did not provide the means of reconciliation. You ignore the need for folks to "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ.

Again, I don't think so. Christ has indeed provided reconciliation for all His people, for Jew and Gentile alike (2 Cor, 5:18-21). He now calls all people to receive it, and when they do so they will find that God has loved them from the foundation of the world, and drawn them to Himself (Jer. 31:3)

5) Those given to Christ (John 6:37) refers to those God transfers into Christ (Colossians 1:13). That transfer, called redemption, removes people from the realm of darkness, in Adam so to speak, and puts them in Christ, who is the means of reconciliation before transfer, and the reconciliation once transferred.

Col. 1:13 does not mean what you think it means. Those given to Christ were given to Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and they will all come to Christ They are then transferred into the kingdom of Christ. There is no question of someone trusting in Christ and then God deciding that his faith is not "righteous" enough.

6) All the sin of those supposedly chosen before creation was NOT laid on Christ. Christ removes the sin burden of everyone God transfers into Him via the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.

That is not what the Bible teaches. You have it back to front. God has given to Christ a people to redeem and He will not lose even one of them (John 6:37, 39; 10:26-29; 17:2, 24; 18:9). The sins of these people was certainly laid upon our Lord (Isaiah 53:6) and He has borne them, and the curse attached to them, in His own body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

7) Once again, you use the OT to interpret the NT, rather than the correct hermeneutic which is to interpret the OT in light of the NT. The Greek word translated "atonement" in the NT is "Katallage" (G2643) and appears in Romans 5:11, Romans 11:15,
2 Corinthians 5:18 and 19. Even the KJV translates the word as "reconciliation" in 2 Corinthians 5:18 and 19, but goes astray using "atonement" and a grammatical transformation changing the word into a verb "the reconciling." But the actual word refers to a change in position, i.e. reconciliation. See ESV, NASB, or YLT.

I will answer these points a little later. It's past my bedtime.

 

[kyredneck]

Nothing to say that the devil had anything to do with our Lord's death on the cross.

God:
14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

Martin Marprelate:
Nope. Didn't happen.

 

[Van]

I doubt you are much older than Iam (73), but if your eyesight is defective, then by all means use a bigger font, and please accept my apologies.

I don't think it is. Our Lord knew that everything was accomplished (from the Greek teleo), so He declared, "It is finished!" (from the Greek teleo).

It would be helpful if you quoted my words that you disagree with so that I can reply accurately.

Again, I don't think so. Christ has indeed provided reconciliation for all His people, for Jew and Gentile alike (2 Cor, 5:18-21). He now calls all people to receive it, and when they do so they will find that God has loved them from the foundation of the world, and drawn them to Himself (Jer. 31:3)

Col. 1:13 does not mean what you think it means. Those given to Christ were given to Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and they will all come to Christ They are then transferred into the kingdom of Christ. There is no question of someone trusting in Christ and then God deciding that his faith is not "righteous" enough.

That is not what the Bible teaches. You have it back to front. God has given to Christ a people to redeem and He will not lose even one of them(John 6:37, 39; 10:26-29; 17:2, 24; 18:9). The sins of these people was certainly laid upon our Lord (Isaiah 53:6) and He has borne them, and the curse attached to them, in His own body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).

I will answer these points a little later. It's past my bedtime.

1) I am nearly a decade older than 73.

2) It is finished refers to finishing and accomplishing, or fulfilling what He had in mind.

3) All your words are in the above "quote."

4) Here is where you use "doublespeak." You say "Christ provided reconciliation for all His people" when I say Christ provided the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2. God loved the whole of fallen humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone, not a preselected subset, believing into Him will not perish. The action is not receiving a special efficacious call, but God crediting the faith of the fallen person as righteousness that results in being (1) called into, (2) baptized into, (3) transferred into, (4) given to and (5) believed into Christ's spiritual body, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

5) No individual was "given" to Christ before the foundation of the world, as all those "called into His marvelous light" had once been "not a people, and had not yet received mercy. Both of those divine actions therefore did not occur before we existed as a person whose faith God had credited as righteousness.

6) Next you claim those that said Lord Lord in Matthew 7 did not think they believed in Christ. Or the #2 and 3 Soils of Matthew 13 did not believe in Christ. You seem to be rewriting scripture to fit false doctrine.

7) Did anyone say God decides whether a person's faith is righteousness enough? No. But you misrepresent the position, rather than address the fact God credits the faith of some, such as Abraham, as righteousness. No lost person's faith is righteous! Why formulate a strawman, rather than address the issue you deny?

8) God has not given, called into, baptized into, all the people He may choose to save in the future, based on crediting their faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness. He is reconciling humanity in the present.

9) Not even one of your list of verses ((John 6:37, 39; 10:26-29; 17:2, 24; 18:9) support your Calvinist indoctrination, "you have it backward."
) God gives people to Him, present tense, not past tense. The action has not been completed, God is reconciling now and until the end of the age. John 6:40, everyone who believes into Him, present tense, so God is crediting the faith of some today and tomorrow until the end of the age, and transferring them into Christ.

10) You finally got something right, everyone transferred into Christ then has their sin burden removed!

 

[Zaatar71]

@Martin Marprelate's stance that Satan had nothing to do with the crucifixion is heretical. He has been thoroughly refuted on this topic.

From some 'SOLID' PST folks:

Why Did Satan Crucify Jesus?

Hello Kyredneck,
Maybe you should consider that Satan was not a part of the Covenant of Redemption, when the triune God purposed for the Son to come and accomplish redemption of the elect on the cross. If Satan was used with wicked men to "bruise" His heal, but he did not "crush" His head.Satan is not, and was not in Control. Rev.1
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Deut32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Jn.19;11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

These Events come from the Covenant of Redemption as it unfolds in time, Satan is just one tool used-
Acts2:
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Just like the Foreknown Elect, The Suffering Servant was foreknown-
Rev.13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Martin's post are solid, perhaps look at them again.
PS. Anytime Van, and JohnC like what you post, that is a warning sign!

 

[kyredneck]

If Satan was used with wicked men to "bruise" His heal HEEL, but he did not "crush" His head.Satan is not, and was not in Control. Rev.1
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

<sigh> Did God raise Him from the dead, or not?

Did 'that generation' get charged with, and punished for His murder, or not?

 

[Zaatar71]

<sigh> Did God raise Him from the dead, or not?

Did 'that generation' get charged with, and punished for His murder, or not?

Both are true Kyredneck, it is not an either or, but rather a both and! Satan and the ungodly were against Him all the way,Yes. That is only a part of the larger story.....You know this, but we know this also is true;
Acts4:
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:


25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? {psalm2}


26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.


27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,


28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
God is not the author of sin which these people and Satan were guilty of. But God even uses Satan and ungodly persons to accomplish His purposes. PSA to take place, it was needful to use these means to accomplish Jesus suffering the wrath of God for the sins of the elect as their Divine substitute. The Apostles, were not going to put Jesus on the cross! Their sin had a hand in it , as he died as their mediator and surety, but The punishment and wrath that came His was way, physically, was only a shadow of the real suffering of His soul, that the sin inflicted upon Him.

 

[kyredneck]

Martin's post are solid, perhaps look at them again.
PS. Anytime Van, and JohnC like what you post, that is a warning sign!

Little do you know, you've not been around here long enough.

 

[kyredneck]

it is not an either or, but rather a both

Yes.

 

[Zaatar71]

Little do you know, you've not been around here long enough.

I have not seen all martin has posted for sure. I do like what I have read of his posts. If I detect things I think are off, I would gladly offer to him my offer of correction, and if I happened to get a bit closer to truth, I would think he would consider and welcome such correction. If we all want truth, we would all be corrected along the way. I have been corrected many times, and seek out correction that is biblically solid all the time.
A person who holds to the idol of free -will,or tries to oppose the truths of the doctrines of grace cannot have as full a success in what they do biblically. Thankfully God uses many such Christians despite these handicaps, because God is sovereign. He can use simple believers, as well as bible scholars, and even a Donkey, or a great fish to teach others.
So, martin is still growing as we all are. I think he is probably not going to ghet everything right, but I am not going to either.When I come across what I think is error, I will not be shy to comment on it.

 

[JonC]

I have not seen all martin has posted for sure. I do like what I have read of his posts. If I detect things I think are off, I would gladly offer to him my offer of correction, and if I happened to get a bit closer to truth, I would think he would consider and welcome such correction. If we all want truth, we would all be corrected along the way. I have been corrected many times, and seek out correction that is biblically solid all the time.
A person who holds to the idol of free -will,or tries to oppose the truths of the doctrines of grace cannot have as full a success in what they do biblically. Thankfully God uses many such Christians despite these handicaps, because God is sovereign. He can use simple believers, as well as bible scholars, and even a Donkey, or a great fish to teach others.
So, martin is still growing as we all are. I think he is probably not going to ghet everything right, but I am not going to either.When I come across what I think is error, I will not be shy to comment on it.

The problem is Martin is not growing (we have seen his posts for about 20 years). He makes declarations, but he never truly defends his beliefs.

What I mean is he never explains why others should hold his assumptions. He just says that is what we should assume as well.

Your complaint with me was that I stay too close to God's Word (you even "insulted" me by saying that anybody can fo what I do...just use Scripture).

But so far you have not defended your claims that my belief is unbiblical. You simply make the claim and when asked where my belief departs from God's Word you run away and start another thread.

@kyredneck and I disagree on interpretations. @Van and I do as well. BUT the difference between them and you (and Martin) is we disagree on interpretations of God's words (actual passages) where you two just tell us to believe what is not in the Bible.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

@kyredneck @JonC @Martin Marprelate @Zaatar71
Greetings all. I have come late to this party and don't really have anyone I want to specifically address. My objective, as always, is God's truth. Wherever that may lead me.

I do find this in the Holy Scripture...

Here is how I understand this verse...
1. Jesus Christ became "the Mediator of the new covenant".
2. He became this Mediator "by means of death".
3. This death was "for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant".

In other words, Christ took on death for the transgressions of the law (the law-unfulfilled is the first covenant). This verse, Hebrews 9:15, makes sense when compared to the Holy Scripture that says that "the letter kills" (2Cor 3:6) and the commandments of the law-unfulfilled "brings death" (Rom 7:9-10).

Further, it is the devil that has "the power of death" (Heb 2:14) and it is "through death He might destroy him" (Heb 2:14).
1. The devil has and uses the power of death.
2. Christ is to take on this power of death that the devil uses, to destroy the devil.
3. The devil bruises the heel of the Seed with his power, i.e., death. But God uses what was intended by the devil as evil for good.

It seems reasonable to equate the bruising of the Seed's heel with the death of Jesus on the cross.

Of course, the Holy Scripture also says that the law brings wrath. That would also would need to be reconciled by each parson.



Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

The best posting that I have ever read from you Ky. Amen.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

. ‘For He has made Him who know no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him’ (2Cor 5:21. cf. also Rom 5:19; 1Cor 1:30).

The O.P. and all your follow up postings are the best I've ever read on the BBF.

Amen.

I should read your O.P. every day. Maybe more than once. Awesome. Thank you very much and THANK YOU FOR LOVING JESUS AND BRAGGING ON GOD'S SON, UNDER THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

THAT'S ALL BIBLE.