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Eschatology

E

easternstar

Member
What do you believe? Premillenialism? Dispensationalism? Amillenialism? Do you believe in a rapture?

I'm not sure where I am in this, but I am sure where I am not: Dispensationalism, and a rapture theology.
 
Reformed

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You've been posting a lot lately. That's great. All good questions.

I was raised Roman Catholic, so I never had a fully formed eschatology. When I came to faith in Christ it was in a pretribulational, premillennial incubator. I attended a Bible college of the same persuasion. Eventually I started to think and ask hard questions. The answers I received were all of the boiler plate variety. All that did was cause me to dig deeper. I looked at the writings of the early church fathers (the Patristic age) all the way through the Reformers. I read Darby, Mueller, Scofield, Chafer, Pentecost, and Ryrie. I read, prayed, and deliberated. It wasn't a matter of embracing an eschatology, it was more of first leaving a systematic theology. It was like walking out a door without a destination. You're no longer in the building but you're not sure where your going. All I knew is that I no longer affirmed the Dispensational system. There's a scene in one of the Matrix sequels in which the character Neo is speaking with the Oracle. Neo asks, "Do I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?" The Oracle replies, "No. You've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it." That's where I was in respect to what I believed, not just about Eschatology, but systematic theology as a whole. It wasn't until later that I was convinced that the Reformed view - the Covenant Theology view - of systematic theology was were I had planted my flag. But even within CT there are debates regarding millennial views. To be sure, all matters of theology are important and worthy of study. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The danger is allowing our study to deflect us away for the central message of the Cross. It's not our systematic theology that binds us to Christ, it is the blood of Christ - His sacrifice on the Cross - that does that. Everything else in our Christian journey follows after.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
easternstar said:
What do you believe? Premillenialism? Dispensationalism? Amillenialism? Do you believe in a rapture?

I'm not sure where I am in this, but I am sure where I am not: Dispensationalism, and a rapture theology.
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I believe there is a rapture ("Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord"). But exactly how this will look I do not know.

Same with Dispensationalism. Not a dispensationalist, but I know there are dispensations.

I definitely do not hold Covenant Theology (but there are covenants).

I do not have, or feel the need to have, and detailed theology when it comes to eschatology.

When it comes to the "divine economy" I tend to view Scripture as narrative.
 
E

easternstar

Member
Reformed said:
You've been posting a lot lately. That's great. All good questions.

I was raised Roman Catholic, so I never had a fully formed eschatology. When I came to faith in Christ it was in a pretribulational, premillennial incubator. I attended a Bible college of the same persuasion. Eventually I started to think and ask hard questions. The answers I received were all of the boiler plate variety. All that did was cause me to dig deeper. I looked at the writings of the early church fathers (the Patristic age) all the way through the Reformers. I read Darby, Mueller, Scofield, Chafer, Pentecost, and Ryrie. I read, prayed, and deliberated. It wasn't a matter of embracing an eschatology, it was more of first leaving a systematic theology. It was like walking out a door without a destination. You're no longer in the building but you're not sure where your going. All I knew is that I no longer affirmed the Dispensational system. There's a scene in one of the Matrix sequels in which the character Neo is speaking with the Oracle. Neo asks, "Do I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?" The Oracle replies, "No. You've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it." That's where I was in respect to what I believed, not just about Eschatology, but systematic theology as a whole. It wasn't until later that I was convinced that the Reformed view - the Covenant Theology view - of systematic theology was were I had planted my flag. But even within CT there are debates regarding millennial views. To be sure, all matters of theology are important and worthy of study. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The danger is allowing our study to deflect us away for the central message of the Cross. It's not our systematic theology that binds us to Christ, it is the blood of Christ - His sacrifice on the Cross - that does that. Everything else in our Christian journey follows after.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've posted a lot. I've got many strong beliefs, but very few certainties, so I'm exploring.
I can appreciate struggling to find what you believe. Thanks for sharing part of your journey.
 
E

easternstar

Member
JonC said:
I believe there is a rapture ("Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord"). But exactly how this will look I do not know.

Same with Dispensationalism. Not a dispensationalist, but I know there are dispensations.

I definitely do not hold Covenant Theology (but there are covenants).

I do not have, or feel the need to have, and detailed theology when it comes to eschatology.

When it comes to the "divine economy" I tend to view Scripture as narrative.
Click to expand...
I guess I'm pretty much where you are on all this.
 
E

easternstar

Member
I've got lots of head knowledge, from 50 years of my passion being church history and theology. And I have some firm beliefs. But life circumstances have me questioning everything -- again. I did this originally in my early twenties. I've had a few experiences that I was certain were from God, but lately I just feel empty and disconnected. I long for and desperately need tangible, experiential knowledge and evidence that God intervenes in his creation and communicates with people. I pray, and beg, but get nothing.
 
John of Japan

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
easternstar said:
I've got lots of head knowledge, from 50 years of my passion being church history and theology. And I have some firm beliefs. But life circumstances have me questioning everything -- again. I did this originally in my early twenties. I've had a few experiences that I was certain were from God, but lately I just feel empty and disconnected. I long for and desperately need tangible, experiential knowledge and evidence that God intervenes in his creation and communicates with people. I pray, and beg, but get nothing.
Click to expand...
Here it is: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). I have walked with Jesus for about 70 years now. He is real (historically, spiritually, existentially, however you want to put it), He loves the world, He came to earth to save us. He communicates with me daily through His Word and His Spirit, and it's wonderful!
 
E

easternstar

Member
John of Japan said:
Here it is: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). I have walked with Jesus for about 70 years now. He is real (historically, spiritually, existentially, however you want to put it), He loves the world, He came to earth to save us. He communicates with me daily through His Word and His Spirit, and it's wonderful!
Click to expand...
Thanks. I am happy for you. I have a firm beliefs in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. I just wish I knew him like the Apostle Thomas came to know him.
 
John of Japan

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
easternstar said:
Thanks. I am happy for you. I have a firm beliefs in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. I just wish I knew him like the Apostle Thomas came to know him.
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You can have everything I have spiritually simply by living by faith. We are saved by faith, and then must life the Christian life by faith. That was my point. Sorry if it didn't communicate well. As for God speaking to you, we have that in the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit. God speaks to me every day.

In all of her communications, my sister finishes with, "I have a good God." She has been through some horrific times in her life, including an abusive husband. (She fled with the kids.) Our human experience matters not; God is still good. Trust Him.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Reformed said:
You've been posting a lot lately. That's great. All good questions.

I was raised Roman Catholic, so I never had a fully formed eschatology. When I came to faith in Christ it was in a pretribulational, premillennial incubator. I attended a Bible college of the same persuasion. Eventually I started to think and ask hard questions. The answers I received were all of the boiler plate variety. All that did was cause me to dig deeper. I looked at the writings of the early church fathers (the Patristic age) all the way through the Reformers. I read Darby, Mueller, Scofield, Chafer, Pentecost, and Ryrie. I read, prayed, and deliberated. It wasn't a matter of embracing an eschatology, it was more of first leaving a systematic theology. It was like walking out a door without a destination. You're no longer in the building but you're not sure where your going. All I knew is that I no longer affirmed the Dispensational system. There's a scene in one of the Matrix sequels in which the character Neo is speaking with the Oracle. Neo asks, "Do I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?" The Oracle replies, "No. You've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it." That's where I was in respect to what I believed, not just about Eschatology, but systematic theology as a whole. It wasn't until later that I was convinced that the Reformed view - the Covenant Theology view - of systematic theology was were I had planted my flag. But even within CT there are debates regarding millennial views. To be sure, all matters of theology are important and worthy of study. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The danger is allowing our study to deflect us away for the central message of the Cross. It's not our systematic theology that binds us to Christ, it is the blood of Christ - His sacrifice on the Cross - that does that. Everything else in our Christian journey follows after.
Click to expand...
I traveled from classic arminiasm AOG, to strict Dispy premil pretrib, to now reformed Baptist eschatology, of more akin to Historical premil. I let go of staunch pretrib view, but still find premil as the seconding return best escatologial outlook so far
 
E

easternstar

Member
John of Japan said:
You can have everything I have spiritually simply by living by faith. We are saved by faith, and then must life the Christian life by faith. That was my point. Sorry if it didn't communicate well. As for God speaking to you, we have that in the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit. God speaks to me every day.

In all of her communications, my sister finishes with, "I have a good God." She has been through some horrific times in her life, including an abusive husband. (She fled with the kids.) Our human experience matters not; God is still good. Trust Him.
Click to expand...
I need something tangible. I know the Holy Spirit is said to indwell believers, but I have no indication that He is in me.
 
John of Japan

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
easternstar said:
I need something tangible. I know the Holy Spirit is said to indwell believers, but I have no indication that He is in me.
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit doesn't shout and doesn't point Himself out to the believer, though His influence may be very strong in saving. We don't speak of the Holy Spirit pushing or forcing or even urging. He leads, He guides, He fills, but only when the believer wants Him to. Are you right now totally surrendered to God's will for your life? (No need to answer here; send a personal message if you want to talk more.

In recent months I've taken to consulting the Holy Spirit about what I should be doing with my time when I am done with a project or job and ready to move on. He always answers in a still, small voice, and it is always exactly what I need to know and what direction I ought to take. He has become more and more real to me as long as I am listening.
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
My favorite commentary on the book of Revelation is by William Hendriksen, entitled, More Than Conquerors. It is free to read online in pdf format. I find this commentary to be in harmony with the Bible taken as a whole. I highly recommend this commentary.


Here is an excerpt from chapter one:

"In the main, the purpose of the book of Revelation is to comfort the militant Church in its struggle against the forces of evil. It is full of help and comfort for persecuted and suffering Christians. To them is given the assurance that God sees their tears (7:17; 21:4); their prayers are influential in world affairs (8:3,4) and their death is precious in His sight. Their final victory is assured (15:2); their blood will be avenged (19:2); their Christ lives and reigns for ever and for ever. He governs the world in the interest of His Church (5:7,8). He is coming again to take His people to Himself in ‘the marriage supper of the Lamb’ and to live with them for ever in a rejuvenated universe (21:22)."
 
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