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Hello, I'm a Jehovah's Witness
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@Salty
Hi, I believe that the apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9).
When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.
Christ is called “The mighty god” at Isaiah 9:6, “god” at John 1:1 and “the only-begotten god” at John 1:18. Though Jesus is also distinct from, created by, and subordinate to, the Almighty God:
Hi, I believe that the apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9).
When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.
Christ is called “The mighty god” at Isaiah 9:6, “god” at John 1:1 and “the only-begotten god” at John 1:18. Though Jesus is also distinct from, created by, and subordinate to, the Almighty God:
- “My Father is greater than I [Jesus].”—John 14:28.
- “I [Jesus] ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.”—John 20:17.
- “To us there is but one God, the Father.”—1 Corinthians 8:6.
- “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”—1 Peter 1:3.
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Do you believe that Jesus and the Archangel Michael are the same "created being"? That's what all the JW's who come to my door try to tell me.
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That's where you and I will differ. I've had at least three conversations at my door about this and made zero progress in getting the Jehovah's Witnesses to understand who Jesus is and who Michael is.
But, then again, we don't read the same Bible. In my Bible, the book of Hebrews clearly distinguishes Jesus Christ from angels. In my Bible, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not a created angel - not a created anything. In my Bible, Jesus is the Creator.
But, then again, we don't read the same Bible. In my Bible, the book of Hebrews clearly distinguishes Jesus Christ from angels. In my Bible, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not a created angel - not a created anything. In my Bible, Jesus is the Creator.
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@Scarlett O.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
I believe it is extremely important to realize that God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, “the one he was specially fond of.”—Proverbs 8:30; John 3:16.
This is true because only Jehovah’s firstborn Son could measure up to the special needs of the situation involving sinful mankind. He is such an image of his heavenly Father in showing affection for members of the divinely produced family that he is without equal among the sons of God.
Since all other intelligent creatures were brought into existence by means of Jesus, his affection for them would certainly be abundant!
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
I believe it is extremely important to realize that God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, “the one he was specially fond of.”—Proverbs 8:30; John 3:16.
This is true because only Jehovah’s firstborn Son could measure up to the special needs of the situation involving sinful mankind. He is such an image of his heavenly Father in showing affection for members of the divinely produced family that he is without equal among the sons of God.
Since all other intelligent creatures were brought into existence by means of Jesus, his affection for them would certainly be abundant!
@Salty and @Scarlett O.
If we are considering opening up this forum to Jehovah Witnesses then we need to have a discussion (not only among Staff but the members as well).
The reason is Jehovah Witness doctrine has historically been considered (in the words of @Dr. Bob ), "strong heresy".
As it stands (without any changes) this thread is inappropriate.
@Submitter , please understand that I am not addressing you in a derogatory way. I am simply considering the bounds of the board (I assume a Jehovah Witness forum would have to do the same, depending on the scope of membership).
If we are considering opening up this forum to Jehovah Witnesses then we need to have a discussion (not only among Staff but the members as well).
The reason is Jehovah Witness doctrine has historically been considered (in the words of @Dr. Bob ), "strong heresy".
As it stands (without any changes) this thread is inappropriate.
@Submitter , please understand that I am not addressing you in a derogatory way. I am simply considering the bounds of the board (I assume a Jehovah Witness forum would have to do the same, depending on the scope of membership).
At the very least, the links need to be gone.
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@Scarlett O. @JonC
I understand that the YouTube links have been removed, so I will try to answer the question in my own words:
A comparison of Biblical statements lead to the reasonable and logical conclusion that Michael was Christ's heavenly name.
The term "Archangel" means "chief oof the angels". It occurs in the Bible only in the singular which indicates that there is only one. Michael is the only one ever called "Archangel."
1.) Only two names are associated with authority over angels: Michael (Rev.12:7) and Jesus Christ (Mat.16:27; 25:31; 2Thes.1:7). Michael leads the angels to defeat Satan and hurl him to earth (Re 12:7). Christ leads that heavenly army of angels and conducts God's war. (Re 19:13,19).
2.) At 1Thes. 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as that of an archangel. The Greek grammar demands that the voice is Christ's, not that he is accompanied by the voice.
In every biblical occurrence of this idiom it is always describing the voice of the subject (Lk. 4:33; Rev 5:2; 7:2; 10:3; 14:7,9,15,18; 19:17, Ac 7:60). If Christ were not the Archangel, describing his voice in this way would be like describing a man's voice as a mouse's; highly demeaning and disrespectful. Only the single archangel has the voice of the archangel.
Hence, this prophecy gives strong reason for identifying Jesus as the archangel, Michael.
3.) Only one voice can command the dead to rise in the coming resurrection. This authority has been given to the Christ by his Father (Jn.5:25,26). But it is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead during the resurrection. (1Thes. 4:16; cf Dan.12:2).
Since only the voice of Christ can raise the dead at the time of the end, and this voice is the voice of an archangel, it is only reasonable to conclude that Christ must be the Archangel.
4.) In Daniel chapter 7, there is a prophecy about the march of world powers to the end-time. At the climax of that prophecy we read that Christ was "given rulership and dignity and kingdom" (Dan.7:13, 14). Then Daniel foretold that during "the time of the end" *Michael* will "stand up" (Dan.10:13;11:40; 12:1). Michael's "standing" indicates a ruling capacity and thus supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since only Jesus is Jehovah's appointed King.
Hence, in the climax of one prophecy, Jesus becomes a king in the end-time. In the other prophecy, Michael exercises kingly power in the end-time. Since both prophecies deal with the same time and the same event, it is reasonable to conclude that they are also dealing with the same person.
5.) Michael's "standing up" was to be associated with an unprecedented "time of distress" (Dan.12:1). The same tribulation is mentioned in Mt.24:21 in regard to Christ's "presence" in kingdom power.
Then the book of Revelation (12:7,10,12) specifically mentions Michael as acting at the establishment of God's Kingdom and links this event to extreme trouble for the earth. The correlation of the timing and actions of Michael and Jesus are difficult to ignore!
6.) Finally, Satan is abyssed by an "angel" for a thousand years. (Rev.20:1, 2, 10) However, when Christ was on earth, the demons identified him as the one who was to hurl them into the "abyss" (Mt 8:29).
Then Jesus is the one prophesied to crush Satan's head (Gen.3:15; 1Jn 3:8), yet it is the conquering Michael with "his angels" referred to in Revelation 12 as conquering Satan (Ps. 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34, 35).
All the above shows for me that Michael is repeatedly said to be at the same place as the Christ during the same time period doing the same unique thing as the Christ, but is never seen with the Christ! Kinda like Clark Kent and Superman!
This argues that Jesus and Michael are the same, since they both command God's army, the heavenly host of angels.
I hope this helps to understand my point of view better!
I understand that the YouTube links have been removed, so I will try to answer the question in my own words:
A comparison of Biblical statements lead to the reasonable and logical conclusion that Michael was Christ's heavenly name.
The term "Archangel" means "chief oof the angels". It occurs in the Bible only in the singular which indicates that there is only one. Michael is the only one ever called "Archangel."
1.) Only two names are associated with authority over angels: Michael (Rev.12:7) and Jesus Christ (Mat.16:27; 25:31; 2Thes.1:7). Michael leads the angels to defeat Satan and hurl him to earth (Re 12:7). Christ leads that heavenly army of angels and conducts God's war. (Re 19:13,19).
2.) At 1Thes. 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as that of an archangel. The Greek grammar demands that the voice is Christ's, not that he is accompanied by the voice.
In every biblical occurrence of this idiom it is always describing the voice of the subject (Lk. 4:33; Rev 5:2; 7:2; 10:3; 14:7,9,15,18; 19:17, Ac 7:60). If Christ were not the Archangel, describing his voice in this way would be like describing a man's voice as a mouse's; highly demeaning and disrespectful. Only the single archangel has the voice of the archangel.
Hence, this prophecy gives strong reason for identifying Jesus as the archangel, Michael.
3.) Only one voice can command the dead to rise in the coming resurrection. This authority has been given to the Christ by his Father (Jn.5:25,26). But it is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead during the resurrection. (1Thes. 4:16; cf Dan.12:2).
Since only the voice of Christ can raise the dead at the time of the end, and this voice is the voice of an archangel, it is only reasonable to conclude that Christ must be the Archangel.
4.) In Daniel chapter 7, there is a prophecy about the march of world powers to the end-time. At the climax of that prophecy we read that Christ was "given rulership and dignity and kingdom" (Dan.7:13, 14). Then Daniel foretold that during "the time of the end" *Michael* will "stand up" (Dan.10:13;11:40; 12:1). Michael's "standing" indicates a ruling capacity and thus supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since only Jesus is Jehovah's appointed King.
Hence, in the climax of one prophecy, Jesus becomes a king in the end-time. In the other prophecy, Michael exercises kingly power in the end-time. Since both prophecies deal with the same time and the same event, it is reasonable to conclude that they are also dealing with the same person.
5.) Michael's "standing up" was to be associated with an unprecedented "time of distress" (Dan.12:1). The same tribulation is mentioned in Mt.24:21 in regard to Christ's "presence" in kingdom power.
Then the book of Revelation (12:7,10,12) specifically mentions Michael as acting at the establishment of God's Kingdom and links this event to extreme trouble for the earth. The correlation of the timing and actions of Michael and Jesus are difficult to ignore!
6.) Finally, Satan is abyssed by an "angel" for a thousand years. (Rev.20:1, 2, 10) However, when Christ was on earth, the demons identified him as the one who was to hurl them into the "abyss" (Mt 8:29).
Then Jesus is the one prophesied to crush Satan's head (Gen.3:15; 1Jn 3:8), yet it is the conquering Michael with "his angels" referred to in Revelation 12 as conquering Satan (Ps. 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34, 35).
All the above shows for me that Michael is repeatedly said to be at the same place as the Christ during the same time period doing the same unique thing as the Christ, but is never seen with the Christ! Kinda like Clark Kent and Superman!
This argues that Jesus and Michael are the same, since they both command God's army, the heavenly host of angels.
I hope this helps to understand my point of view better!
GentleGospeller
Member
Oh, interesting. I didn't realize that this BaptistBoard allowed such diversity of persons.
Do you have some time to dialogue?
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GentleGospeller
Member
Would you mind if we start with a bit of background? I will share mine also as you desire, so long as I can remain awake. A little tired (1:41 AM).
Have you always been with the WatchTower & Tract Society membership (ie. as born into a family that believed as such), or did you come into it from another religion / denomination / atheism, &c.?
Submitter
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@GentleGospeller
Sure,
People in general adopt the religon of their parents or because it's their culture. If your parents are muslim, you'll be a muslim. If you are born in India, you'll be hindu. People are influenced by their background and settle for the religion of their surroundings.
It's different with Jehovah's witnesses. Just because your parents are JWs doesn't make you a JW. It's a personal decision you take when you get baptized and dedicate your life to God.
I got baptized in 2017 and it is the best thing I have ever done because I made God happy !
The reason why I was convinced of the truthfulness of Christianity is twofold:
Either one of two things happened:
A ) Jesus is killed. He does not resurrect. And people would realize he was a false prophet. The gospels are never written, and every Jew returns to his daily life.
B )Jesus is killed. But he resurrects only three days later. He meets with his followers who are ecstatic, they spread his resurrection to everyone, the gospels are written, their faith grows even more and they are ready to die because they believe something that have seen with their own eyes: that Jesus is the son of God and rose from the dead.
Which of these happened, A or B ? Only option B makes sense to me!
The second reason is the love that exists between true disciples of Christ. During the Rwandan conflict, Hutus and Tutsis genocided each other, often encourages by religious leaders
Except Jehovah's Witnesses. Despite the ongoing racial battle, Hutu and Tutsi Jehovah's Witnesses did NOT do any such things and instead loved and protected each other to the peril of their lives, because our master is Jehovah, not the state.
According to a humanitarian website:
"Churches of every type – with the exception of the Jehovah’s Witnesses – participated in the genocide, with priests and ministers organizing and often leading killing and directing Tutsis to churches where they were then slaughtered. All of them – Catholic, Protestant, Anglican were involved at the highest levels in organizing and implementing the genocide. Many, including the Catholic Church, have given safe haven to genocidaires in an act of extreme and ongoing evil revealing the falseness of their apologies and hollowness of their purported repentance"
humanityinaction.org
Also Jehovah's Witnesses are not members of the WatchTower & Tract Society. It is a publishing Company used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to publish Bibles and literature.
Sure,
People in general adopt the religon of their parents or because it's their culture. If your parents are muslim, you'll be a muslim. If you are born in India, you'll be hindu. People are influenced by their background and settle for the religion of their surroundings.
It's different with Jehovah's witnesses. Just because your parents are JWs doesn't make you a JW. It's a personal decision you take when you get baptized and dedicate your life to God.
I got baptized in 2017 and it is the best thing I have ever done because I made God happy !
The reason why I was convinced of the truthfulness of Christianity is twofold:
Either one of two things happened:
A ) Jesus is killed. He does not resurrect. And people would realize he was a false prophet. The gospels are never written, and every Jew returns to his daily life.
B )Jesus is killed. But he resurrects only three days later. He meets with his followers who are ecstatic, they spread his resurrection to everyone, the gospels are written, their faith grows even more and they are ready to die because they believe something that have seen with their own eyes: that Jesus is the son of God and rose from the dead.
Which of these happened, A or B ? Only option B makes sense to me!
The second reason is the love that exists between true disciples of Christ. During the Rwandan conflict, Hutus and Tutsis genocided each other, often encourages by religious leaders
Except Jehovah's Witnesses. Despite the ongoing racial battle, Hutu and Tutsi Jehovah's Witnesses did NOT do any such things and instead loved and protected each other to the peril of their lives, because our master is Jehovah, not the state.
According to a humanitarian website:
"Churches of every type – with the exception of the Jehovah’s Witnesses – participated in the genocide, with priests and ministers organizing and often leading killing and directing Tutsis to churches where they were then slaughtered. All of them – Catholic, Protestant, Anglican were involved at the highest levels in organizing and implementing the genocide. Many, including the Catholic Church, have given safe haven to genocidaires in an act of extreme and ongoing evil revealing the falseness of their apologies and hollowness of their purported repentance"
Article - US - Noam Schimmel - 2020 Commemoration for the Rwandan genocide against the Tutsi - Humanity in Action
In honor of the 26th Anniversary of the Rwandan Genocide against the Tusti, Senior Fellow Noam Schimmel, Professor Lecturer at the Elliot School of International Affairs at George Washington University, wrote the following reflection. You can find the full address on SURF, Survivor's Fund here...
humanityinaction.org
Also Jehovah's Witnesses are not members of the WatchTower & Tract Society. It is a publishing Company used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to publish Bibles and literature.
GentleGospeller
Member
I am aware of general patterns in life, in regards parents raising their children in their beliefs, but living in a particular country (ie Arabia, Iraq, or Africa, or India, &c.) does not mean that those born into those countries will be of the majority religion / practise there. I was speaking more of the parents than the countries. Ie., Christians, Jews, &c., are in all of those countries, even in Muslim and Indian, or Communist (Atheistic state), etc ones. However, I understand what you mean. I was not really asking about them, but you personally. You might have a shorter response if you merely addressed yourself, but your prerogative on how you respond, but I do have limited time and am tired (so eyes are tired).@GentleGospeller
Sure,
People in general adopt the religon of their parents or because it's their culture. If your parents are muslim, you'll be a muslim. If you are born in India, you'll be hindu. People are influenced by their background and settle for the religion of their surroundings.
It's different with Jehovah's witnesses. Just because your parents are JWs doesn't make you a JW. It's a personal decision you take when you get baptized and dedicate your life to God.
I got baptized in 2017 and it is the best thing I have ever done because I made God happy !
The reason why I was convinced of the truthfulness of Christianity is twofold:
Either one of two things happened:
A ) Jesus is killed. He does not resurrect. And people would realize he was a false prophet. The gospels are never written, and every Jew returns to his daily life.
B )Jesus is killed. But he resurrects only three days later. He meets with his followers who are ecstatic, they spread his resurrection to everyone, the gospels are written, their faith grows even more and they are ready to die because they believe something that have seen with their own eyes: that Jesus is the son of God and rose from the dead.
Which of these happened, A or B ? Only option B makes sense to me!
The second reason is the love that exists between true disciples of Christ. During the Rwandan conflict, Hutus and Tutsis genocided each other, often encourages by religious leaders
Except Jehovah's Witnesses. Despite the ongoing racial battle, Hutu and Tutsi Jehovah's Witnesses did NOT do any such things and instead loved and protected each other to the peril of their lives, because our master is Jehovah, not the state.
According to a humanitarian website:
"Churches of every type – with the exception of the Jehovah’s Witnesses – participated in the genocide, with priests and ministers organizing and often leading killing and directing Tutsis to churches where they were then slaughtered. All of them – Catholic, Protestant, Anglican were involved at the highest levels in organizing and implementing the genocide. Many, including the Catholic Church, have given safe haven to genocidaires in an act of extreme and ongoing evil revealing the falseness of their apologies and hollowness of their purported repentance"
Article - US - Noam Schimmel - 2020 Commemoration for the Rwandan genocide against the Tutsi - Humanity in Action
In honor of the 26th Anniversary of the Rwandan Genocide against the Tusti, Senior Fellow Noam Schimmel, Professor Lecturer at the Elliot School of International Affairs at George Washington University, wrote the following reflection. You can find the full address on SURF, Survivor's Fund here...
Also Jehovah's Witnesses are not members of the WatchTower & Tract Society. It is a publishing Company used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to publish Bibles and literature.
As for Rwandan Genocide, Paul Rusesabagina ('hero' of Hotel Rwanda, and now falsely imprisoned by deceit) was raised in the Seventh-day Adventist faith. So it is not just Jehovah's Witnesses that did not partake in genocidal killing. Those persons who did partake were not Christians, even if they had claimed to be. Those who did partake in such murder, merely clung to their racial-cultural segregation and bigotry, instead of the teachings of Jesus Christ. I am not sure why this was brought up, since I was merely interested in your own personal history. I am also sure there were those who did not hold to any Christian / Bible belief, and did not partake either, simply because they knew (Rom. 1) it was wrong to do so.
I would disagree with your final statements in regards the WTS and JW memebrship however - https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/watchtower-society/
Yet, if you do not desire to be directly associated with the WTS (and cite it as a publication entity), as in regards membership thereto, that is your prerogative, and I will not belabour the point, and meant no offense. I was merely curious as to your religious background, personally.
If I may ask another question to your personal faith?
Which book (or other) did you study that brought you to your present conclusion of being a Jehovah's Witness member? Ie. was it a Bible, was it Creation (surroundings, environ, &c.) or some other literature, &c.? If it was a bible, may I ask which it was?
Paul Rusesabagina - Wikipedia
Many in the past have viewed Michael as Christ pre-incarnate. John Gill is a favorite of many here, and he taught the same.
The reason that the links were removed was out of caution. The BaptistBoard does not allow non-trinitarian doctrine or members (such as Holiness Pentecostals and Jehovah Witnesses).
That is one of the few rules in regard to "other beliefs" that has been historically enforced.
Christian Forum may provide you with the dialogue you are seeking.
best wishes.
While it would be interesting to explore your faith, unless the board rules change you are not permitted as a member.
GentleGospeller
Member
Well, there goes any reason for me to be here. I might as well make it another several months to year before I come back.
Is there a JW talk forum where I can become a member as a Baptist and teach the opposite of what you're teaching?
When I was radio talk show host - my sign-off stated "When you remain silent - You have spoken"
I asked the OP twice if he believed if Jesus was God the Son.
He refused to answer both times. Thus it appears that he does NOT believe Jesus is God.
Well, we let Submitter speak his peace - but he refused to acknowledge the basic Tennent of Christianity
Thus along with Jon - I bid you farewell!
I asked the OP twice if he believed if Jesus was God the Son.
He refused to answer both times. Thus it appears that he does NOT believe Jesus is God.
Well, we let Submitter speak his peace - but he refused to acknowledge the basic Tennent of Christianity
Thus along with Jon - I bid you farewell!
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