PSA Justice vs Biblical Justice

[JonC]

We have introduced different philosophies of justice (we have not been able to discuss them, but they have been introduced in the PSA threads).

The problem with justice in the PSA sense is that it minimizes sin by viewing sin as a debt that must be paid, another paying this debt on behalf of man so that man is reconciled to God which diminishes God’s holiness.

Steve is charged with molesting a child. He pleads guilty. As his judge you impose the sentence demanded by the law and sentence him to jail for 5 years and when released he is in a database for the crime.

Steve’s father comes forward and assumes the penalty that the law demands. You send Steve’s father to prison and when released he is in the database on behalf of his son. Justice is satisfied. You would never allow a criminal in your home, but Steve’s debt has been paid. So you invite him into your house with your grandchildren.

The judge acted unjustly. He viewed the law as requiring punishment for crimes, and as long as that debt is met justice is fulfilled. The judge does not understand the role of punishment, or even justice.

There are only two just solutions for Steve. Punish Steve by casting him out of society (put him in jail, send him to the UK, but do not allow him in society) OR somehow make Steve “not a child molester”.

 

[JonC]

PSA theorists also look at this debt in a financial way (they shift between justice and financial obligations without pause).

Steve steals $5000 worth of jewelry from your house. The judge orders Steve to repay the $5000 in order to make you whole and to serve 5 years probation. Steve’s father assumes that debt, pays you $5000 and serves the probation on behalf of Steve. You now invite him into your home a justice has been met.


But man’s sin does not create a debt owed to God. Man’s sin demonstrates a deficiency in man. Sin does not make God less whole. Sin makes man less whole. Man’s sin injures man, not God.

Another issue is PSA advocates often go to sin as a transactional issue to explain away the moral problems associated with PSA. The idea is that it is no longer the Father punishing the Son but God taking upon Himself the debt.

But this means God is less. He is not whole. He has reached in his own wallet and paid the $5000 Steve owes, to Himself. God remains the victim of sin, man has in effect conquered God

 

[JonC]

Biblically justice is less convoluted while viewing God in a more positive light.

Justice is synonymous with righteousness. They are literally the same word. The goal of the judge is to create or maintain a righteous state. This righteousness is the righteousness of God.

Steve molested and murdered a child. He stands before the judge. The judge imposes a sentence- death. Steve’s father pleads to take his son’s place. The judge explains to Steve’s father that justice does not demand crimes be punished, but rather crimes are punished in order to achieve justice. The reason for Steve’s punishment is to remove this unrighteousness from the world. Steve’s father cannot take Steve’s place.

Steve is executed. At Judgment he stands before God as a wicked person. Steve is cast out and spends an eternity in Hell (the Second Death).

Saul was guilty of aiding in murder. Saul was given a different kind of life, and became a different person. Saul died, and Paul was born of the Spirit. Saul was tried and executed for his support of murdering a young man. When Saul died physically it is because of sin, but Paul is raised incorruptible. He stands before the Judge as a righteous person. God declares that Paul is righteous and Paul enters into God’s kingdom. Justice is met because Paul is righteous.

 

[JonC]

Philosophies of justice have evolved greatly over time.

The ancient ideas of justice was cosmic harmony (Plato, Aristotle), this being a harmony based on God's righteousness (Hebrew justice).

The Stoics introduced the idea of universal justice, applying to mankind as a whole.

The Medieval period saw a shift of justice being centered on law (rather than law being a method to achieve justice).

Thomas Aquinas developed the concept of proportional reciprocity. This is the idea that justice is giving others what they are due.

 

[JonC]

Borrowing from Plato, justice is achieving an ideal state or society. The Hebrew concept of this ideal state is the kingdom of God with justice removing evil (or unrighteousness) that would stand in opposition to divine righteousness.

God's righteousness was manifested in the law, but the law itself is not this righteousness. God's righteousness is eternally greater than the law. If the Sun were God's righteousness then the law woukd be the moon, reflecting this righteousness.

 

[JonC]

Sources: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Boston University: Concepts of Justice, University of Michigan Law School, Hadar Institute,

 

[JonC]

In the Hebrew religion kareth is a punishment for sin. The punishment is "cutting off" from the people. The goal is to achieve justice (the people returning to a state of righteousness or justice by removing evil).

 

[Dave G]

The problem with justice in the PSA sense is that it minimizes sin by viewing sin as a debt that must be paid, another paying this debt on behalf of man so that man is reconciled to God which diminishes God’s holiness.

Steve is charged with molesting a child. He pleads guilty. As his judge you impose the sentence demanded by the law and sentence him to jail for 5 years and when released he is in a database for the crime.

Steve’s father comes forward and assumes the penalty that the law demands. You send Steve’s father to prison and when released he is in the database on behalf of his son. Justice is satisfied. You would never allow a criminal in your home, but Steve’s debt has been paid. So you invite him into your house with your grandchildren.

The problem that I'm personally seeing with justice in the PSA sense ( and why I disagree with it, in the Scriptural sense ), is that what you've described in the highlighted, I see as being exactly what comes out of our minds ...and, what God created in the Law of Moses.... and acts as a permanent witness to the way that He views sin and what it would take for us to satisfy Him under that system. This system is natural to us, and the dynamics of it are well-understood and practiced by humanity to this day.

Do you follow?

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life.
That is the Law of Moses, and that is how justice is accomplished under the Law.
Someone has to pay, and offenses require satisfaction.

But that is not what the Lord Jesus did on the cross, or He would be in Hell ( prison ) right now awaiting His rightful place in the Lake of Fire on Judgement Day...
Instead of Him being on the right hand of God the Father ( making intercession ) now, and someday being His representative Judge when that day comes.

See the problem?

According to the Scriptures, the elements of PSA in every detail are not what occurred in Heaven befroe the foundation of the world, what occurred on the cross and what are now occurring in Heaven.

 

[Dave G]

As I see it, PSA keeps missing the significant details put forth in its system:

1) It resembles and acts, in every way, exactly like the Law of Moses.
2) Scripture never tells us that what is now occurring ( and what is left to happen ) does and will act according to every detail of this dynamic.
3) ...and most importantly, Jesus Christ will never end up taking the place of, and suffering eternal torment for, His people in the Lake of Fire.

If "Penal Substitutionary Atonement" were true in all its details, then God's word would state, start to finish, what you've said in your quote above.
That's how it would work.

In other words, to meet the conditions set forth by God in the Law, my Saviour would have had to act on my behalf in every sense of the word.
He would have had to be declared a sinner, be found guilty of those sins before God, and be sentenced to the exact same punishment that God would have sentenced me to...
Eternal torment in the Lake of Fire imposed upon Him by His own Father in His wrath towards sinners.

He would have had to agree to take my place...completely.

Which means that I would, after Judgment Day, never see Him again... and He would suffer eternally in my place.
The end result for Him, would be the exact, same thing that I would have been sentenced to...

If PSA were true.

How this keeps being overlooked and / or ignored, I do not know.

 

[JonC]

The problem that I'm personally seeing with justice in the PSA sense ( and why I disagree with it, in the Scriptural sense ), is that what you've described in the highlighted, I see as being exactly what comes out of our minds ...and, what God created in the Law of Moses.... and acts as a permanent witness to the way that He views sin and what it would take for us to satisfy Him under that system. This system is natural to us, and the dynamics of it are well-understood and practiced by humanity to this day.

Do you follow?

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life.
That is the Law of Moses, and that is how justice is accomplished under the Law.
Someone has to pay, and offenses require satisfaction.

But that is not what the Lord Jesus did on the cross, or He would be in Hell ( prison ) right now awaiting His rightful place in the Lake of Fire on Judgement Day...
Instead of Him being on the right hand of God the Father ( making intercession ) now, and someday being His representative Judge when that day comes.

See the problem?

According to the Scriptures, the elements of PSA in every detail are not what occurred in Heaven befroe the foundation of the world, what occurred on the cross and what are now occurring in Heaven.

I think I see what you mean. What I see in PSA is a type of shell game.

It shifts ambiguity not only between moral justice to financial fulfillment to contractual obligation in presentation but also changes the terms of justice at will.

Justice and righteousness are (biblically) the same idea (literally the same word).

It seems to me that there has to be a constant and objective divine righteousness because God is constant and objective (He never changes, His righteousness is not compromised).

When reading the Law, it becomes apparent that it was never something that made people righteous or unrighteous but instead a standard or measure of what exists. It showed us our sin - evidence that we fall short of God's glory - but offered no path to remedy the situation.


Another issue you aptly identify is the "right now" part. PSA does not present Christ as at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us in the present, nor as our High Priest mediating for us when we sin in the present.

 

[Dave G]

When reading the Law, it becomes apparent that it was never something that made people righteous or unrighteous but instead a standard or measure of what exists. It showed us our sin - evidence that we fall short of God's glory - but offered no path to remedy the situation.

I agree.
But in PSA, that "path" is for Jesus to suffer the wrath of His Father ( which would be everything from judgement for each of our sins, all the way to paying for those millions of sins forever in eternal fire ), which He did not, nor ever will, do.

PSA does not present Christ as at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us in the present, nor as our High Priest mediating for us when we sin in the present.

I agree...No it does not.
All it does is to portray the Lord as "The Substitute", not the living Saviour who triumphed over the evil that besets His people everyday, and answers to God the Father for the sins of His people ( which Satan accuses us of ), every day.

" It is Finished" is not part of PSA, because according to the Law, it will never be finished if He "took our place" in the strictest sense.
That is what it is to meet God's justice according to His perfect Law.
But, Jon, there's another way...
And its "shadow" was actually included in the Law:


A blood sacrifice to atone for sins.

 

[Dave G]

So, from my perspective, the Lord Jesus did not pay for my sins in the judicial sense...
My sins were laid ON Him as the perfect sacrifice that God intended Him to be.
He is my sin-bearer, not my "sin-debt-payer".

Payment in the judicial sense would require HIM to now be suffering the same punishment that I would have received;
According to the letter of the Law.
This is the critical detail that is often overlooked by the PSA theory.

If Jesus suffered God's wrath, died on the cross "in my place", and payed, with His life, for me...then the rest must also be included.
But it's not a complete payment if He is not judged on Judgement Day and is not in Hell right now...where I should be when I die and await my judgement.

Instead, He delivered me from my sins...
I was "washed in His blood" because the Lord God looks upon that perfect blood as my atonement;
His righteousness is now mine, as a gift from a loving Father:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 [saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin".

He does not look upon an eternally suffering Saviour ( who took my punishment upon Him ), as my atonement, and He does not look upon me as someone whose sins were "paid for" according to the terms of the Law.

He looks upon me as someone that He's forgiven, and that forgiveness has a price...
His Son's precious blood on the cross.

THAT was the payment.

 

[JonC]

He looks upon me as someone that He's forgiven, and that forgiveness has a price...
His Son's precious blood on the cross.

THAT was the payment.

I like the terminology that we were bought with a price. We were purchased not with gold or silver but with the precious blood of Christ.

Atonement is not about the Father collecting a debt but the price Christ paid to reconcile us to God in Himself.

 

[Ben1445]

I like the terminology that we were bought with a price. We were purchased not with gold or silver but with the precious blood of Christ.

Atonement is not about the Father collecting a debt but the price Christ paid to reconcile us to God in Himself.

Bought from?

 

[JonC]

Bought from?

That is not a logical question (there is no "bought from"). The closest you get to a "bought from" in the Bible is "sin and death", or Satan as a master (we were freed from that bondage).

I served in the military. I have friends who paid "the ultimate sacrifice" (they died in defense of our nation). Who did they pay this sacrifice to?

I paid a price for my service (knee replacement, fractured back, etc.). Who did I pay that price to?

There is no "bought from" unless you consider God to have purchased us from Satan (our previous master) or "sin and death" as an entity. But that is still hazy logic.

Christ purchased us with His own blood, suffered what He had to endure in order to reconcile us to God in Himself.

 

[37818]

Isaiah 53:12, . . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . . .

Jeremiah 31:34, . . . saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[Dave G]

Bought from?

What does God's word say?

From ourselves = 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
To redeem us from all iniquity and to purify to Himself a peculiar people...zealous of good works = Titus 2:14.
From our vain and worthless manner of living that we, as men and women, have inherited from our "fathers" ( those that came before us ) in this world = 1 Peter 1:18
So that we, being dead to sin, should live for righteousness = 1 Peter 2:14
From the curse of the Law, so that we as believers might inherit the blessings of Abraham, and to receive the Spirit by faith = Galatians 3:13-14

Christ purchased us with His own blood, suffered what He had to endure in order to reconcile us to God in Himself.

Amen.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I like the terminology that we were bought with a price. We were purchased not with gold or silver but with the precious blood of Christ.

Atonement is not about the Father collecting a debt but the price Christ paid to reconcile us to God in Himself.

I fully agree. The idea that PSA is God collecting a debt is a false theory. Christ has reconciled us to God by satisfying His justice (Romans 3:26; 2 Cor. 5:19-21), but it is God's love that sent Him to do so (John 3:16; Romans 5:6-8).

 

[Ben1445]

This is all arguing semantics that have no real effect on what Christ did. It’s already done.
We are redeemed from the curse of the law.
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
We were sold under sin.
Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

But the idea of debt is not something extra biblical. The idea comes from the Bible. While it may not be accurately used every instance, it hasn’t been conjured up without Scripture.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Without the grace of God, we are debtors.

It is not a difficult thing to say that that grace of God answers for, cancels, and/or pays our debt to the law. The point is not how it happens, it is that it happened and that Jesus did it.

 

[JonC]

I fully agree. The idea that PSA is God collecting a debt is a false theory. Christ has reconciled us to God by satisfying His justice (Romans 3:26; 2 Cor. 5:19-21), but it is God's love that sent Him to do so (John 3:16; Romans 5:6-8).

I agree, with the caveat that this was justice in the biblical sence (righteousness), reconciling God and man in the Person of Christ (Christ being this Reconciliation, the Firstborn of all who will believe) rather than God punishing our sins to satisfy some secular judicial philosophy.