Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?

[asterisktom]

Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?


The fact that Matthew Henry believed this was true led me to consider this topic. It is well-known that some cults like the Jehovah’s Witnesses also teach this. Yet we shouldn’t prematurely be against a position just for that reason. We should let Scripture, and not let tradition or tenets of cultists have any weight in the matter. ...

 

[Silverhair]

Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?


The fact that Matthew Henry believed this was true led me to consider this topic. It is well-known that some cults like the Jehovah’s Witnesses also teach this. Yet we shouldn’t prematurely be against a position just for that reason. We should let Scripture, and not let tradition or tenets of cultists have any weight in the matter. ...

I would think these two verses would put that idea to rest.

Jud_1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Rev_12:7 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

Michael being an archangel would be over other angels, a general if you like, but you notice that it is not Michael that rebukes Satan but he called on the Lord to do so.

 

[percho]

I have a question.

In Psalm 110 who is the LORD who is speaking and who is the person the LORD is speaking of and to?

 

[Silverhair]

The LORD God almighty. Gen_17:1

The Lord is the coming Messiah, Christ Jesus.

This is a Messianic psalm.
We see the Lord at the right hand of the LORD
Then as the king returning to rule
He will also be the eternal priest of His people
Who will destroy the enemy and judge the world

 

[Ben1445]

There was plenty of Scripture there but a lot of stretching application to fit a false teaching.
Similar to the way JWs make a statement, read an unrelated verse from nearly every book of the Bible and proclaim solid proof.

I don’t see it. You’ll have to explain that better.
And it didn’t help me when you went into the preterism. That didn’t help your case. It makes your argument less credible because from my view, you follow strange doctrines.

Jesus is Lord. Michael is not Lord.

 

[Ascetic X]

There is already a post on this topic. You could have participated in it.

 

[Silverhair]

Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?


The fact that Matthew Henry believed this was true led me to consider this topic. It is well-known that some cults like the Jehovah’s Witnesses also teach this. Yet we shouldn’t prematurely be against a position just for that reason. We should let Scripture, and not let tradition or tenets of cultists have any weight in the matter. ...

There are several points that you have overlooked.
(1) The only similarity between Jude 9 and Zec 3:2 is the expression, “The LORD rebuke you"
(2) Michael is not mentioned in Zec 3:2
(3) The “body of Moses” is not mentioned in Zec 3:2
(4) The reason for the LORD's rebuke of Satan is found in Zec 3:1.
"Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him."

It would seem to me that you have latched onto the words “The LORD rebuke you" and come to the wrong conclusion that Jude 9 and Zec 3:2 are referring to the same event. Which they clearly do not.

You then compared "Michael shall stand up," Dan. 12:1 with "the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Act 7:56

We see "the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" Mat_9:6
"the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Mat_12:8
"the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Mat_16:28
So we can know that "Son of Man" in Act 7:56 is referring to Christ Jesus.

But what do we know about Michael

"Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me," Dan 10:13
"There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince. " Dan 10:21
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise." . Dan_12:1

We see from scripture that Michael is one of the chief princes and the Son of Man is Christ Jesus, God.

Michael the Chief Messenger ≠ Christ Jesus, God

 

[Deacon]

There is a reason why Michael might be associated with our LORD (not saying I agree with it though!)
A passage in Joshua 5:13-15 fits into this discussion.

In Joshua, chapter 5, where Joshua is about to begin the battle of Jericho, he confronts an angelic Commander/Prince/Leader.
>Joshua "worships" the figure (Josh 5:14 (AV) - although most modern versions translate it simply as, "bowed down," or "in homage").
>The figure declares the ground around him as holy (Josh 5:15) [compare Ex 3.5 and Num. 22:23, 31].
>If the narrative is understood as continuing into chapter 6, the next communication is from "the LORD" (Josh 6:2).

There are some Pseudepigraphal and Targumic sources that claim that this angel is named, Michael.

Rob

 

[Ben1445]

There are several points that you have overlooked.
(1) The only similarity between Jude 9 and Zec 3:2 is the expression, “The LORD rebuke you"
(2) Michael is not mentioned in Zec 3:2
(3) The “body of Moses” is not mentioned in Zec 3:2
(4) The reason for the LORD's rebuke of Satan is found in Zec 3:1.
"Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him."

It would seem to me that you have latched onto the words “The LORD rebuke you" and come to the wrong conclusion that Jude 9 and Zec 3:2 are referring to the same event. Which they clearly do not.

You then compared "Michael shall stand up," Dan. 12:1 with "the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Act 7:56

We see "the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" Mat_9:6
"the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Mat_12:8
"the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Mat_16:28
So we can know that "Son of Man" in Act 7:56 is referring to Christ Jesus.

But what do we know about Michael

"Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me," Dan 10:13
"There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince. " Dan 10:21
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise." . Dan_12:1

We see from scripture that Michael is one of the chief princes and the Son of Man is Christ Jesus, God.

Michael the Chief Messenger ≠ Christ Jesus, God

What we can gather from Jude and Zechariah together is that Satan needs rebuke from the Lord.

To parallel the passages would make Joshua the High Priest out to be Moses reincarnated, and also dead.

 

[Silverhair]

There is a reason why Michael might be associated with our LORD (not saying I agree with it though!)
A passage in Joshua 5:13-15 fits into this discussion.

In Joshua, chapter 5, where Joshua is about to begin the battle of Jericho, he confronts an angelic Commander/Prince/Leader.
>Joshua "worships" the figure (Josh 5:14 (AV) - although most modern versions translate it simply as, "bowed down," or "in homage").
>The figure declares the ground around him as holy (Josh 5:15) [compare Ex 3.5 and Num. 22:23, 31].
>If the narrative is understood as continuing into chapter 6, the next communication is from "the LORD" (Josh 6:2).

There are some Pseudepigraphal and Targumic sources that claim that this angel is named, Michael.

Rob

Agreed that is a way some would read those verses, which I would see as the wrong understanding.

We are told in
Heb 1:5 to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son;..."
Heb 1:6 "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever..."

Jud_1:9 "But Michael the archangel,..."
Dan 10:13 "Michael, one of the chief princes, ..."

In Jos 5:13-15 we are seeing the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

[Ben1445]

Agreed that is a way some would read those verses, which I would see as the wrong understanding.

We are told in
Heb 1:5 to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son;..."
Heb 1:6 "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever..."

Jud_1:9 "But Michael the archangel,..."
Dan 10:13 "Michael, one of the chief princes, ..."

In Jos 5:13-15 we are seeing the pre-incarnate Christ.

Outside of Jericho, the captain of the host of the Lord is not described as an angel or messenger.

The identity of His being an angel is an addition to the reading

 

[37818]

Agreed that is a way some would read those verses, which I would see as the wrong understanding.

We are told in
Heb 1:5 to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son;..."
Heb 1:6 "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever..."

Jud_1:9 "But Michael the archangel,..."
Dan 10:13 "Michael, one of the chief princes, ..."

In Jos 5:13-15 we are seeing the pre-incarnate Christ.

Zachriah 3:1-2, . . . before the angel of the LORD, . . . .

 

[Silverhair]

Zachriah 3:1-2, . . . before the angel of the LORD, . . . .

@37818 just posting a verse with no explaining text is not of much use.

Care to expand on this.

 

[37818]

@37818 just posting a verse with no explaining text is not of much use.

Care to expand on this.

Zachriah 3:1-2, And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

The LXX, . . . The Lord rebuke thee . . . . Is a Greek cross reference to Jude 1:9.

 

[Silverhair]

Zachriah 3:1-2, And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

The LXX, . . . The Lord rebuke thee . . . . Is a Greek cross reference to Jude 1:9.

It would seem to me that you and @asterisktom have latched onto the words “The LORD rebuke you"

If you read post #7 you will see that I dealt with Zac 3:1-3 and Jude 1:9.

 

[Deacon]

Outside of Jericho, the captain of the host of the Lord is not described as an angel or messenger.

The identity of His being an angel is an addition to the reading

Well sort of…the Septuagint identifies the being as an “archistratēgos“ a commander-in-chief or an archangel.

Then putting pieces together, (the multiple Moses/Joshua parallels), means this was either a divine messenger or the LORD himself.

Rob

 

[37818]

It would seem to me that you and @asterisktom have latched onto the words “The LORD rebuke you"

If you read post #7 you will see that I dealt with Zac 3:1-3 and Jude 1:9.

There are several points that you have overlooked.
(1) The only similarity between Jude 9 and Zec 3:2 is the expression, “The LORD rebuke you"
(2) Michael is not mentioned in Zec 3:2
(3) The “body of Moses” is not mentioned in Zec 3:2
(4) The reason for the LORD's rebuke of Satan is found in Zec 3:1.
"Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him."

It would seem to me that you have latched onto the words “The LORD rebuke you" and come to the wrong conclusion that Jude 9 and Zec 3:2 are referring to the same event. Which they clearly do not.

You then compared "Michael shall stand up," Dan. 12:1 with "the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Act 7:56

We see "the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" Mat_9:6
"the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Mat_12:8
"the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Mat_16:28
So we can know that "Son of Man" in Act 7:56 is referring to Christ Jesus.

But what do we know about Michael

"Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me," Dan 10:13
"There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince. " Dan 10:21
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise." . Dan_12:1

We see from scripture that Michael is one of the chief princes and the Son of Man is Christ Jesus, God.

Michael the Chief Messenger ≠ Christ Jesus, God

Then why does the Angle of the LORD later use the same phrase as Michael the Archangel? When He IS the LORD Himself? Explain that.

 

[Ben1445]

First of all, cross references don’t mean anything more than another place to look while you study. There is no exhaustive list of cross references nor are cross references inspired in their written form.
The references from one place to another being organized by the Giver I acknowledge readily. But to say that any cross references made by people are undoubtedly related is an error.

I think I understand what you are talking about now.

I don’t see your argument bearing out.
Besides being inessential doctrine, Michael is not the Name given among men whereby we must be saved.
I find this sort of doctrine stretching to be confusing at best, toward the purpose to which Christians have been given.

 

[Ascetic X]

Then why does the Angle of the LORD later use the same phrase as Michael the Archangel? When He IS the LORD Himself? Explain that.

We have gone through all this on the other thread. Different individuals using the same phrase does not mean the individuals are the same person.

If Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ, then there are 2 names by which we can be saved.

Acts 4:11,12

This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Michael cannot be Jesus Christ, because Christ rebuked the devil and demons directly, from His own divine authority. Jesus did dare to condemn the devil. Jesus said, “Satan get thee behind me!”

Jude 9

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Zechariah 3:2 God’s Word Translation

The LORD said to Satan, "I, the LORD, silence you, Satan! I, the LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn't this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?"

Zechariah 3:2 Young’s Literal Translation

And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary: 'Jehovah doth push against thee, O Adversary, Yea, push against thee doth Jehovah, Who is fixing on Jerusalem, Is not this a brand delivered from fire?'

Matthew 16:23

But he (Jesus) turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[Silverhair]

Then why does the Angle of the LORD later use the same phrase as Michael the Archangel? When He IS the LORD Himself? Explain that.

I did.
It is a stretch to say because the same phrase was used then they must be the same person.

But you have to deal with the differences. How do you explain those?

If both you and I say "Bless the Lord" does that make us the same person?