Dead in Sin Continued

[JD731]

I wanted to respond to a couple comments on this previously closed thread because the subject comes from maybe one of the most abused and misunderstood passages of scripture in the whole Bible, so i started this second thread.

Silverhair responded to my post #148

The difference is the non existence of any drawing after the resurrection. What does this tell us. It tells us the drawing of God to Christ his son is in a Jewish and a "physical" context.

Silverhair
So how do you explain Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

This is not the Father drawing. The men whom Jesus is drawing to himself is in the context. It is the men to whom he came to minister in his incarnation. How many times are we told who he came to? Why don't we believe it?

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
I have been seeking someone who will believe that but so far I am batting zero.

We do not need the word "draw" to be in the text to see God's desire that all come to Him for salvation. 1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That quote is post resurrection. God's desire is not in question. The question is if he is drawing men unto himself or to Jesus. Is it a doctrine without biblical authority?

We have the conviction of our sins Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

A different subject. First he (the comforter, the Holy Ghost) had not come when Jesus was lifted up.

We have the gospel message Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,...

The gospel message is not physical. Jesus on the cross was physical. Every person in the world can be saved by believing the gospel and not seeing anything, but Jusus Christ must have hung on that cross one time. The power of God to save sinners is in the gospel message that saved men preach. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. There is no doctrine of drawing in the New Testament.

We have creation itself Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This knowledge that creation teaches all men is a natural revelation of his (God's) person, his presence, and his power. It does not reveal his mind. It takes the word to do that. Jesus Christ is the Word. This verse and passage is not teaching what you are trying to force it to teach.
The Bible does not say they were saved by that.

To say that God is not drawing man since the resurrection is to miss the whole message of the bible.

It would be unlike God to teach us something as important as how a man is saved without using the word. There is no word (draw) in the NT to indicate that God is drawing. God is in somewhat of a partnership with men he has already saved to get other men saved. Saved men preach the gospel To lost men and to make him and his salvation known. The nation Israel knew God and had a long standing relationship with him but most of the nations did not. There is no basis for him to draw the nations. Someone will have to tell them who God is and what he is like.


.

 

[Ascetic X]

@JD731 To say that after the resurrection of Jesus, there are no more instances of the Father “drawing to Christ” the unsaved — this is a semantics issue. Why would the Father suddenly stop drawing people to His Son, when His will is for all humans to be saved?

To lead seems the same as to draw.

Romans 2:4

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The word ἐλκύσω, "I will draw," is applied elsewhere (John 6:44) to the Father's work of grace, which preveniently prepares men to come to Christ.

 

[JD731]

The dynamics of "drawing" is completely different in the gospel accounts of Jesus Christ and his ministry, which is before his blood sacrifice of himself on the cross, than the "drawing" during the post resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The difference is the non existence of any drawing after the resurrection. What does this tell us. It tells us the drawing of God to Christ his son is in a Jewish and a "physical" context.

This nation was an expectant nation because of their Bible, that contained the promises that God made just to them first, and by extension to the world. The promises required a physical deliverer, a man, someone they could see and he must be recognizable through their prophets. This would be the drawing power for these people to whom the promises are made. The prophets said he would be born of a virgin, he would be born in Bethlehem, he would do miracles and those who believed and were anticipating his coming would be drawn to him because of these things.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

But they have seen the son and Jesus would later say that he that hath seen the son hath seen the Father.

The requirement during the gospels for them to be drawn to him is to see him. This thing is strictly physical.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

No lost men saw Jesus after his resurrection. Therefore no one was drawn to him physically and the word is not in the epistles with this connotation. The word itself does not appear in the 13 letters Paul wrote explaining how to be saved. Does anyone think that strange if what they teach is true?

Following is as close as it gets and one can see that a man initiates the drawing.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. We need to rightly divide the scriptures and honor context and history. Eternal souls will be affected by what we teach. We must teach the truth.
Click to expand...

Van Said in post 151
Total fiction. John wrote John 6:44 after the resurrection. Drawing refers to attracting the lost by conveying the lovingkindness of God, both before Christ died and after Christ died. Everyone who "sees" refers to those who mentally perceive Jesus and consider His name.

This doesn't make any sense.

"
Lots of lost people saw Jesus after His bodily resurrection, He was visible, and was in a physical body that ate broiled fish. He appeared to 500 people at one time. Yes, brothers may refer to believers rather than simply those of his community, but the question is open, as it strains credulity to claim all 500 were all born anew.

The people with Paul on the road indeed did not see Jesus, but they heard His voice. They did not understand the words as Jesus spoke in Aramaic.

Final point, Thomas was not a believer, but was a disciple when he saw Jesus, see John 20:27.

What I said is true. No person who was not a follower of Christ saw the resurrected Jesus during the 40 days time period between his resurrection and ascension. Even the Roman guards at his resurrection tomb were rendered unconscious.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men

 

[JD731]

@JD731 To say that after the resurrection of Jesus, there are no more instances of the Father “drawing to Christ” the unsaved — this is a semantics issue. Why would the Father suddenly stop drawing people to His Son, when His will is for all humans to be saved?

To lead seems the same as to draw.

Romans 2:4

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The word ἐλκύσω, "I will draw," is applied elsewhere (John 6:44) to the Father's work of grace, which preveniently prepares men to come to Christ.

A careful reading of John 6 will show that The Father was drawing those Jews to Jesus through his OT scriptures with it's prophecies and metaphors.. This is the witness of God to the sons. He actually gave 4 witnesses in the gospel. Take a look.

Jn 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The OT scriptures are the Father's word and in Jn 6 he is drawing through his word. No one besides the Nation Israel knew anything about the OT scriptures and it would be useless to draw them with the scriptures. But it was not part of the plan.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The witness in the New Testament is much broader and personal. Look at it.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The reason the Jews , even the apostles, did not understand this in Jn 6 is explained here: Check it out.

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus said in Jn 6 these words:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

All men in the gospels accounts were natural men. The Spirit was not in them. Not even the disciples understood, however they were faithful men. There is no excuse for us. We have the Bible and many helpful tools and time on our hands. I am afraid these scriptures are being taught by natural men who cannot see.

 

[Ascetic X]

@JD731 said — No one besides the Nation Israel knew anything about the OT scriptures and it would be useless to draw them with the scriptures. But it was not part of the plan.

—————————-

Wrong. Gentiles knew enough of the Hebrew Scriptures for the “wise men”, kings of the east, to bring gifts to the baby Jesus.

Gentiles (non-Jews) were permitted to enter the Jerusalem temple, specifically the large outer courtyard known as the Court of the Gentiles, which served as a place of prayer and learning for all nations. While this area was open to all, Gentiles were strictly forbidden under penalty of death from entering the inner, more sacred, Jewish-only courts.

The Court of the Gentiles was the only area accessible to non-Jews, often called "God-fearers" or worshippers, to learn the OT scriptures and pray to the God of Israel.

At the dedication of the first temple, in the tenth century BC, King Solomon prayed:

As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm — when they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name (2 Chronicles 6:32-33).

And the prophet Isaiah records the words of God regarding the Gentiles and the temple:

… foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant — these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:6-7).

 

[JD731]

@JD731 said — No one besides the Nation Israel knew anything about the OT scriptures and it would be useless to draw them with the scriptures. But it was not part of the plan.

Wrong. Gentiles knew enough of the Hebrew Scriptures for the “wise men”, kings of the east, to bring gifts to the baby Jesus.

Gentiles (non-Jews) were permitted to enter the Jerusalem temple, specifically the large outer courtyard known as the Court of the Gentiles, which served as a place of prayer and learning for all nations. While this area was open to all, Gentiles were strictly forbidden under penalty of death from entering the inner, more sacred, Jewish-only courts.

The Court of the Gentiles was the only area accessible to non-Jews, often called "God-fearers" or worshippers, to learn the OT scriptures and pray to the God of Israel.

They were called proselytes and for a gentile to be included in the covenants of Israel one must commit and submit to the ceremonial laws of Israel and live as a Jew. There remained restrictions. However, these proselytes were individuals, not communities.
and represented a few as opposed to many.

The wise men of the east were likely those who prospered in their knowledge of prophecy under the tutelage of Daniel during the Babylonian captivity. He had great influence in the East.

This does not change what I said about it.

 

[Ascetic X]

They were called proselytes and for a gentile to be included in the covenants of Israel one must commit and submit to the ceremonial laws of Israel and live as a Jew. There remained restrictions. However, these proselytes were individuals, not communities.
and represented a few as opposed to many.

The wise men of the east were likely those who prospered in their knowledge of prophecy under the tutelage of Daniel during the Babylonian captivity. He had great influence in the East.

This does not change what I said about it.

This totally changes what you said about it.

You said:

“No one besides the Nation Israel knew anything about the OT scriptures and it would be useless to draw them with the scriptures.”

Lots of Gentiles were learning the OT scriptures — and Solomon and Isaiah both mentioned these foreigners coming to the temple, a “house of prayer for all nations”.

And after the death of Jesus, when the temple curtain or screen blocking the view of the inner temple was torn in two by a great earthquake, Matthew’s Gospel (the Gospel originally written for a primarily Jewish audience) states that it was not a Jew, but a Gentile – the centurion who beheld Christ’s death – who was inspired to state: “"Surely he was the Son of God!" (Matthew 27:54).

 

[Silverhair]

I wanted to respond to a couple comments on this previously closed thread because the subject comes from maybe one of the most abused and misunderstood passages of scripture in the whole Bible, so i started this second thread.

Silverhair responded to my post #148





This is not the Father drawing. The men whom Jesus is drawing to himself is in the context. It is the men to whom he came to minister in his incarnation. How many times are we told who he came to? Why don't we believe it?

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
I have been seeking someone who will believe that but so far I am batting zero.


That quote is post resurrection. God's desire is not in question. The question is if he is drawing men unto himself or to Jesus. Is it a doctrine without biblical authority?

A different subject. First he (the comforter, the Holy Ghost) had not come when Jesus was lifted up.

The gospel message is not physical. Jesus on the cross was physical. Every person in the world can be saved by believing the gospel and not seeing anything, but Jusus Christ must have hung on that cross one time. The power of God to save sinners is in the gospel message that saved men preach. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. There is no doctrine of drawing in the New Testament.


This knowledge that creation teaches all men is a natural revelation of his (God's) person, his presence, and his power. It does not reveal his mind. It takes the word to do that. Jesus Christ is the Word. This verse and passage is not teaching what you are trying to force it to teach.
The Bible does not say they were saved by that.

It would be unlike God to teach us something as important as how a man is saved without using the word. There is no word (draw) in the NT to indicate that God is drawing. God is in somewhat of a partnership with men he has already saved to get other men saved. Saved men preach the gospel To lost men and to make him and his salvation known. The nation Israel knew God and had a long standing relationship with him but most of the nations did not. There is no basis for him to draw the nations. Someone will have to tell them who God is and what he is like.


.

Excuse me but your idea that God is not drawing man to Himself has got to be one of the most illogical things I have heard.

You seem to have the strange ides that God has to operate in the way you think is correct.
Draw is not a magic word @JD731 as you seem to think.

God uses many ways to draw people to Himself. He just does not say "I am using this to draw people"

 

[Ascetic X]

Excuse me but your idea that God is not drawing man to Himself has got to be one of the most illogical things I have heard.

You seem to have the strange ides that God has to operate in the way you think is correct.
Draw is not a magic word @JD731 as you seem to think.

God uses many ways to draw people to Himself. He just does not say "I am using this to draw people"

To lead seems the same as to draw.

Romans 2:4

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The word ἐλκύσω, "I will draw," is applied elsewhere (John 6:44) to the Father's work of grace, which preveniently prepares men to come to Christ, and that drawing/leading continues today.

 

[JD731]

Excuse me but your idea that God is not drawing man to Himself has got to be one of the most illogical things I have heard.

You seem to have the strange ides that God has to operate in the way you think is correct.
Draw is not a magic word @JD731 as you seem to think.

God uses many ways to draw people to Himself. He just does not say "I am using this to draw people"

Okay, you have a doctrine called "draw." Tell me about it. Where am I going to study this? How does he draw? How & who is he drawing when he actually uses the word? Why isn't this word used in the epistles where we usually find the explanation of our faith?

 

[JD731]

To lead seems the same as to draw.

Romans 2:4

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

The word ἐλκύσω, "I will draw," is applied elsewhere (John 6:44) to the Father's work of grace, which preveniently prepares men to come to Christ, and that drawing/leading continues today.

I am looking at context and circumstance where the word is used and notice there is not a body of doctrine outside that context. I formulate opinions from the words God uses. Why am I wrong in your opinion?

 

[Ben1445]

Okay, you have a doctrine called "draw." Tell me about it. Where am I going to study this? How does he draw? How & who is he drawing when he actually uses the word? Why isn't this word used in the epistles where we usually find the explanation of our faith?

Conviction.
The Holy Spirit striving with men.
Preaching.
Convincing men of sin.
Ears to hear. What are hearing ears hearing? The calling and drawing of God towards righteousness.
Draw is merely the pulling from the perspective of the one who draws, and coming from the perspective of the one who is drawn.

 

[Ascetic X]

I am looking at context and circumstance where the word is used and notice there is not a body of doctrine outside that context. I formulate opinions from the words God uses. Why am I wrong in your opinion?

You are wrong about a few things.

You said:

“No one besides the Nation Israel knew anything about the OT scriptures and it would be useless to draw them with the scriptures.”

It has been pointed out that there were Gentiles who learned the OT scriptures in the temple. But even if a person did not know scriptures, it would not be “useless” to draw them with scriptures. How else does a person come to know the Lord?

Scriptures have always been used to draw, bring, lead, direct unsaved individuals to Christ. All scripture is profitable.

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

You said:

There is no basis for him to draw the nations.


John 12:32


And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


I Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 8:27ff

And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet.

29The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.”

30So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,

and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

33In His humiliation He was deprived of justice.

Who can recount His descendants?

For His life was removed from the earth.”

34“Tell me,” said the eunuch, “who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”

35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?” 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Since the protestant Reformation, only one exegetical commentary on the Greek text of Romans written from a Reformed perspective has been published by a publishing house or a university,

Murray, John. The Epistle to the Romans. “New International Commentary on the New Testament series”. Grand Rapids: WM. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1959.

Since the protestant Reformation, more than 60 exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Romans written from a non-Reformed perspective have been published by a publishing house or a university. The reason for this disparity is not a secret—writing commentaries on Romans from a Reformed perspective is exceeding difficult because Romans does not support Reformed theology.


Martn Marprelate replied ,

Er..... no. I have three commentaries on Romans written from a Reformed perspective on my bookshelf.

Haldane, Robert, Romans. Banner of Truth 'Geneva' Commentary, 1958. Originally published around 1835.

Moule, Handley, The Epistle to the Romans, Hodder and Stoughton, 1904.

Hendriksen, William, Romans, Banner of Truth (published by Baker Book House in the USA, I believe), 1980.

In addition, I have several volumes of D.M. Lloyd-jones' sermons on Romans, also published by Banner of Truth.


Apparently I am well out of date. Top 5 Commentaries on the Book of Romans


In fact there are dozens of Reformed commentaries on Romans. The one by Thomas Shreiner has been recommended to me. Romans, like all the other books of the Bible, amply supports Reformed theology.


Craigbythesea replied,

I have here in my study all of the commentaries on Romans that are mentioned in this post, plus all of the commentaries on Romans by David Martyn Lloyd-Jones. I also have here in my study both editions of the commentary on Romans by Thomas R. Schreiner (1998, 2018) in the Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament series. None of these commentaries, except for the two by Schreiner, are exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Romans but are expositions of the English text. Schreiner Is a “Reformed Baptist” but his commentary on Romans is not truly Reformed in its perspective and it is not listed as a Reformed commentary on the “Best Commentaries” website (Best Commentaries | Old and New Testament Bible Commentary reviews, ratings, and prices).

 

[Silverhair]

Okay, you have a doctrine called "draw." Tell me about it. Where am I going to study this? How does he draw? How & who is he drawing when he actually uses the word? Why isn't this word used in the epistles where we usually find the explanation of our faith?

There is the old canard of give me the exact word.

That just shows how shallow your view is.

If they are drawing near there must have been a reason for them to do so. Like the gospel , conviction of sin, creation.

Heb_4:16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb_7:19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Heb_10:22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Those that draw near to God will be saved.

Heb_7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Heb_10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

But we see that God responds to our drawing near to Him.

Jas_4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

And we know that all men are able to come to God as Christ will draw all men.

Joh_12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Craigbythesea replied,

I have here in my study all of the commentaries on Romans that are mentioned in this post, plus all of the commentaries on Romans by David Martyn Lloyd-Jones. I also have here in my study both editions of the commentary on Romans by Thomas R. Schreiner (1998, 2018) in the Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament series. None of these commentaries, except for the two by Schreiner, are exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Romans but are expositions of the English text. Schreiner Is a “Reformed Baptist” but his commentary on Romans is not truly Reformed in its perspective and it is not listed as a Reformed commentary on the “Best Commentaries” website (Best Commentaries | Old and New Testament Bible Commentary reviews, ratings, and prices).

You do realise, I suppose that the website I referenced in my post was Ligonier, founded by R.C. Sproul. I don't think it would be recommending Arminian commentaries. Likewise Banner of Truth is a Reformed publishing house,set up in the 1950s specifically to promote Reformed and Puritan works. Hendriksen is now dead, so you can't libel him, but he would be shocked to hear that you think he is anything but Reformed. I have his commentary in front of me and if you think it is not exegetical, you haven't read it. It also covers the Greek text in the notes when difficulties arise. Robert Haldane was a Scottish Reformed Presbyterian (think John Knox!) before he was persuaded of Believers' Baptism. His commentary is certainly exegetical. Handley Moule is less well known, but he was to the early part of the 20th Century what John Stott was to the latter part. As far as Shreiner's commentary is concerned, I won't comment on a book I haven't read, but the chap who recommended it to me was very firmly Reformed in his theology.. Lloyd-Jones' sermons on Romans are a massive exercise in exegesis.

Also, you must surely be aware that Romans was the book that brought Martin Luther to his understanding of the grace of God and the start of the Protestant Reformation. The text that brought him to faith in the grace of God was Romans 1:17. More details on request. Far from being a book that does not support Reformed theology, Romans is absolutely foundational to it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The word helkuso, translated 'draw' in John 6:44 & 12:32 is quite a strong word. In Acts 16:19, the NKJV, ESV and NIV translate it as 'drag.' Paul and Silas weren't gently lead or drawn to the market-place; they were seized and dragged.
In John 18:10, helkuso is used to describe the drawing of a sword. How much say did the sword have as to whether or not it was drawn? In John 21:6, 11, the word is used to describe the drawing or hauling of a net out of the sea. Again, how much say did the net have in the matter?

Those are the only uses of the word in the N.T. There is an associated word , helko, which is found in Acts 14:19; 17:6; Rev. 12:4. In the first two of these the meaning is clearly 'drag,' and so it is translated in the NKJV (I haven't checked the others). In Rev. 12:4 you can make up your own mind.

 

[JD731]

There is the old canard of give me the exact word.

That just shows how shallow your view is.

If they are drawing near there must have been a reason for them to do so. Like the gospel , conviction of sin, creation.

Heb_4:16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb_7:19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Heb_10:22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Those that draw near to God will be saved.

Heb_7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Heb_10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

But we see that God responds to our drawing near to Him.

Jas_4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

And we know that all men are able to come to God as Christ will draw all men.

Joh_12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

I don't think you get it. None of those verses has God drawing anyone. I would not have posted my comments if they did. I know all those verses is in the Scriptures. You are just posting verses because they have the word "draw" in them. Why don't you try to see the point?

The context of the gospels is the pre cross work of God and Jesus Christ to Israel.

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

It is all chronicled in the prophetic scriptures. God has a plan to redeem Israel and through them all mankind. John 6 is one of those chapters that gives us a great deal of understanding of how he will accomplish that. He will send Jesus Christ who is both his son in the flesh,, having been born
as a man through a virgin, and God, in one person. But God is a Spirit.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So, through his birth in Bethlehem, Jesus is both physical and spirit. He is the God Man and Jehovah is his Father.

See here:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

God has been preparing Israel, Particularly Judah as the means to present Jesus to the world as the saviour of the world. We have insight in this John 6 of just how they will be redeemed from the lips of Jesus himself. It would be by Jesus Christ, the son of God experiencing the sin penalty for every man, which is death, (he can die, he is physical) and then cleanse every man and indwell the bodies of those
who will receive him by simple faith. He can indwell the ones he saves because he is Spirit.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

John 6 is written to Israel. They are the tool of God to save the world. Here is the condition of Israel at this time in history.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Every man in the OT was a natural man. No man in the OT understood spiritual things They certainly did not understand John 6 even though they had the son of God teaching them. Jesus would explain later to his disciple that his words were spirit and life.

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

He is telling them that his words does the quickening because they are spirit and life. You guys don't believe that because you get 5 different posters and you will get 5 different sets of words. You must have the words that are spirit. You must not change the words of the Bible. Everyone must speak the same thing.

In John 6 he says he is the bread of life and bread must be in their bodies for the life giving qualities of the bread to do it's work. Jesus is telling these men of Israel that he must be in them to redeem them and give them life. He goes on to say that except they eat his flesh and drink his blood they have no life in them.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

I think those of Israel are being drawn to The man Christ Jesus by the Father by him being the fulfillment of the OT metaphors and prophecies that they would known so well.

44 No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verse 45 is the explanation of v 44

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father (in the prophets), cometh unto me. (this is how he is drawing) them)

 

[JD731]

You are wrong about a few things.

You said:

“No one besides the Nation Israel knew anything about the OT scriptures and it would be useless to draw them with the scriptures.”

It has been pointed out that there were Gentiles who learned the OT scriptures in the temple. But even if a person did not know scriptures, it would not be “useless” to draw them with scriptures. How else does a person come to know the Lord?

Scriptures have always been used to draw, bring, lead, direct unsaved individuals to Christ. All scripture is profitable.

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

You said:

There is no basis for him to draw the nations.


John 12:32


And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


I Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 8:27ff

And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet.

29The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.”

30So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,

and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

33In His humiliation He was deprived of justice.

Who can recount His descendants?

For His life was removed from the earth.”

34“Tell me,” said the eunuch, “who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”

35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is there to prevent me from being baptized?” 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

Let's trust that God will save sinners now by the foolishness of preaching. This is the what he has chosen. It is not about God drawing them, It is about them believing the gospel. God says the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. whether he draws them or not. He says he will save anyone who believes the gospel. The gospel is made known through preaching, not through Bible reading.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

If you are saved you can preach the power of the gospel in your own words.

Calvinism has had a terrible influence on the faith, IMO. They teach that if God doesn't draw them they can't be saved. This is not true.

 

[Silverhair]

The word helkuso, translated 'draw' in John 6:44 & 12:32 is quite a strong word. In Acts 16:19, the NKJV, ESV and NIV translate it as 'drag.' Paul and Silas weren't gently lead or drawn to the market-place; they were seized and dragged.
In John 18:10, helkuso is used to describe the drawing of a sword. How much say did the sword have as to whether or not it was drawn? In John 21:6, 11, the word is used to describe the drawing or hauling of a net out of the sea. Again, how much say did the net have in the matter?

Those are the only uses of the word in the N.T. There is an associated word , helko, which is found in Acts 14:19; 17:6; Rev. 12:4. In the first two of these the meaning is clearly 'drag,' and so it is translated in the NKJV (I haven't checked the others). In Rev. 12:4 you can make up your own mind.

The word “draw” G1670“ Helkúō can be used to indicate the physical dragging of someone or something or it can used of the drawing of someone by persuasion or moral influence.

Several English words have been used to translate helkúō G1670. A search will return only eight verses where helkúō is used. Six of these verses Joh_18:10; Joh_21:6; Joh_21:11; Act_16:19; Act_21:30; and Jas_2:6 all indicate physical action.

The other two times where helkúō G1670 is used are Joh_6:44; and Joh_12:32, where it is obvious that no physical force is intended. So what we need to look at is how the use of helkúō is to be understood in these two verses, Joh 6:44; and Joh 12:32.



Looking at the word “draw” G1670 as it is used in this context.
Draw G1670

"To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in súrō (G4951). ... Helkúō is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come)." “The Complete Word Study Series” by Zodhiates.


Webster's Dictionary defines induce this way:
INDU'CE, v.t. [L. induco; in and duco, to lead.]
To lead, as by persuasion or argument; to prevail on; to incite; to influence by motives.


In the OT helkein draw {ABP+ G1670} denotes a powerful impulse, as in Son_1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (Joh_12:32) but without which no one can come (Joh_6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic.

One needs to understand the difference between using a word to describe purely physical interactions with inanimate objects like swords or nets or even people who are being physically overpowered, and interactions between persons in reference to their emotions, wills, and other spiritual components. That is why no translation has “drag” in Joh_6:44 or Joh_12:32, since “drag” does not fit the context. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, says helkuo is used figuratively “of the pull on man’s inner life. . . . draw, attract Joh_6:44” [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker, p. 251].

The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, states that helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32” [William Mounce, p. 180].

The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament has, “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh_12:32. Cf. Joh_6:44” [W.J. Hickie, p. 13].

The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament by Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller says, “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (Joh_6:44)” [p. 144].

Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible by Spiros Zodhiates, says, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids, p. 1831].

I am sure more reference works could be cited but is it necessary? I have not found any that defines draw as found in Joh_12:32 or Joh_6:44 as “compel or force.”

This gracious working of God does not compel or force anyone to believe but enables all to respond to God’s commands to turn away from sin in repentance, and towards the Savior Jesus Christ in faith.

It would seem @Martin Marprelate that you have misunderstood the use of draw G1670 in John 12:32 & John 6:44.