unprofitable
Active Member
How would Matthew 13:18-23 fit with your method to discern whether someone is saved?
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How easy should it be for a Baptist church to accept a new member.
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Interesting point. This section of scripture is difficult for me to apply to the question of a person being genuinely born again. If we say only the good soil is a truly saved person, then it would require a certain amount of time to see what fruit is being produced.
This scripture refers to how people respond to the gospel over time.
An authentic saved person may want to join a church prior to establishing a long time track record of producing good fruit.
18 Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:
19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
unprofitable
Active Member
It would appear you have not read my other post on this matter or you would have discerned we would examine any individual asking for membership.
We view our church as a body of Christ and it does not matter where we would meet. We had a recent water leak and being a small congregation, met at my house until the repair was completed. We do not view the church as universal or invisible as the catholics
unprofitable
Active Member
God told Israel he would prove them to see if they would love him. The verses in Matthew reflect that proving and is evident in the church today. Christ speaking in John 14:23. We believe that there are good works of Christ in the moral sense but how can we keep the ordinances and covenant as good works without being a member of a local assembly. Ephesians 3:10 tell us "...that it might be known by the church, the manifold wisdom of God." This where right doctrine is to be expounded and good works in the covenant realm may be performed.
unprofitable
Active Member
I agree with your point about trying to discern the intent of the individual asking for membership. A weak member may be have to be admonished several times that they might continue to remain in that body and learn with them. The church may have to be long suffering with that member even as Christ has been long suffering with the membrs of that church that he might present it without spot or blemish. A new individual may have many opinionated ideas that originate from wordly conventions that need to be compared to what truth that church stands for in order for them to become a functional member of that body. So, yes, there needs to be the beginnings of the true foundation of why that person would want to be a part of a church nation that will be hated by the world and the persection that they must endure in order to please its redeemer.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
A person can learn right doctrine and perform good works by attending a church, listening to the preaching and teaching — without officially joining it as a member.
I hope your church does not baptize individuals and make them members, with no discernment, no questions, no explanations, no requirements, no code of conduct, no repentance.
Surely a known terrorist, murderer, dope dealer, child abuser, embezzler, glutton, arsonist, heretic, con artist, sorcerer, alcoholic, kidnapper, compulsive liar, adulterer, gambler, war profiteer, etc. would need to seek help to stop and renounce these sins before being allowed to be baptized and become a church member.
unprofitable
Active Member
I believe I have clearly answered your questions already. You are kinda getting out there with it.
How can an individual be a functioning member of a body of Christ and not be a member?
Does your organization allow someone who is not a member to observe the Lord's supper?
How can a person vote on the matter of church discipline without being a member of a body of Christ?
How can a person keep these covenant ordinances and without being a member of a body of Christ?
How can a person do good works in the covenant realm and not be a member of a body of Christ?
How can you keep the commandments of Christ, including those called ordinances, and not be a member of a body of Christ?
How can an individual be a functioning member of a body of Christ and not be a member?
Does your organization allow someone who is not a member to observe the Lord's supper?
How can a person vote on the matter of church discipline without being a member of a body of Christ?
How can a person keep these covenant ordinances and without being a member of a body of Christ?
How can a person do good works in the covenant realm and not be a member of a body of Christ?
How can you keep the commandments of Christ, including those called ordinances, and not be a member of a body of Christ?
unprofitable
Active Member
What do you think it means in Ephesians 3:10, ...unto you it IS given to know (revealed) (in context of Mt 13:11) the manifold wisdom of God.
You will never see the kingdom of God and not see the necessity of being a member of a body of Christ,
Yes, we do, but if a person comes for 3-4 months and takes communion - I would be talking to them about membership.
Just as a church should review a potential member before extending the right hand of fellowship - a prospective member should check out the church before he joins
unprofitable
Active Member
The Lord's supper was administered by Christ to the beginnings of the body of Christ to his apostles as members of his church (Mt 16:18)
unprofitable
Active Member
got to get ready for church, back to you later
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Correct me if I misinterpret you. It seems you confuse “belonging to the body of Christ” with “being an official member of a local church”.
A born again believer is spiritually a part of the body of Christ by new birth. They can learn correct doctrine and engage in holy behavior without being a member of a local church, but they would certainly search for a local church to attend and eventually join.
unprofitable
Active Member
Ascetic X-
No confusion on our end-
Ephesians 5:23 "For for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the savior of the body.
Colossians 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind in the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, WHICH IS THE CHURCH.
1 Corinthians 12:18 For now hath God set the members in the body, EVERY ONE OF THEM (without exception) IN THE BODY, as it has pleased him.
God never leaves his people on their own to wander around aimlessly. One of the promises of the New Covenant is the he will gather his people together. That is accomplished in part by the ordinance of baptism placing them in the body, to which is given the Holy Spirit
John 3:3 say, "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. A kingdom is a gathered together people in the same light of the definition of church." This can also be worded except a man can see the kingdom of God, he has NOT been born again or from above.
Where in your understanding is the teaching of the kingdom included in your definition of being born again since its necessity is so well pointed out by Christ himself?
We do not ascribe to the universal invisible church teachings.
No confusion on our end-
Ephesians 5:23 "For for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the savior of the body.
Colossians 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind in the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, WHICH IS THE CHURCH.
1 Corinthians 12:18 For now hath God set the members in the body, EVERY ONE OF THEM (without exception) IN THE BODY, as it has pleased him.
God never leaves his people on their own to wander around aimlessly. One of the promises of the New Covenant is the he will gather his people together. That is accomplished in part by the ordinance of baptism placing them in the body, to which is given the Holy Spirit
John 3:3 say, "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. A kingdom is a gathered together people in the same light of the definition of church." This can also be worded except a man can see the kingdom of God, he has NOT been born again or from above.
Where in your understanding is the teaching of the kingdom included in your definition of being born again since its necessity is so well pointed out by Christ himself?
We do not ascribe to the universal invisible church teachings.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
But it is not our job to separate the wheat and the tares.
QUOTE
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
END QUOTE
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
But surely the field in which the wheat and the tares are growing in the parable represents the word, not the local church:
Mat 13:38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. "
Jesus isn't encouraging churches to accept all and sundry into membership.
unprofitable
Active Member
Then how does a church perform the discipline it is commanded to perform
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
(Replying to my own post, because I am too late to edit it):
I meant to type: " the field in which the wheat and the tares are growing in the parable represents the world, not the local church."
unprofitable
Active Member
The scriptures say that the sons of Abraham will do judgment and justice. (Eze 36:26-27, Matt 16:18)) Christ told the Pharisees that they judged unrighteously and left off the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith. (Mt 23:23, I Cor 17:25) Paul rebuked the church at Corinth for failing to keep the house of God in order in excluding the man who commited adultery with his father's wife. (! Cor 5:7). The same church that excluded him (judgment) also restored him (mercy) knowing that (having faith) that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Rom 8:28) the edifying of the body of Christ (Eph 4:12-16).
unprofitable
Active Member
The tares and wheat, just as the goats and sheep are in the covenant world.
unprofitable
Active Member
Christ told the Pharisees, who were in the old covenant, that they were of their father the devil. John 8:44. The same exists today. We must ask are the 30,000 denominations of today saying they speak as trues witnesses on the behalf of Christ, scriptural churches? Where do we draw the line?