Repeating themes in Revelation

[canadyjd]

It would help me to know if this framework you are presenting is in the Preterist view?

That way I will know where we're going.

Frankly, I haven’t studied Revelation with that in mind. As I understand it, you are speaking of the fulfillment of prophecy, particularly the destruction of Jerusalem, is that corrrct?

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

Frankly, I haven’t studied Revelation with that in mind. As I understand it, you are speaking of the fulfillment of prophecy, particularly the destruction of Jerusalem, is that corrrct?

Peace to you

Yes, through speaking with Preterists years ago is how I learned of the Covenant Lawsuit theory.

 

[Charlie24]

Thank you for explaining the dispensational view.

If you start another thread explaining the 7 timelines, I will respectfully consider what you write

Peace to you

Ok, I can do that. Dispensationalism is not that difficult to understand once you understand the main focus is on a literal interpretation of the Scripture, even through Revelation with it's many symbols.

It's starts getting tough to understand with all the results of the literal translation as compared to Reformed Theology. That's where the Rapture in 2 Thes. comes from and many more things contrary to Reformed Theology.

 

[John of Japan]

To answer the question directly, the opening of the 7th seal shows a timeline, if you will, in the progression of the trial. Each seal must be opened in order.

After the 6th seal is opened, there is pause, sometimes referred to as an interlude. Here is the mention of the 144,000 of Israel and of the martyrs “slain in the great tribulation” (which you couldn’t find a reference of) a number too large to count.

These are the martyrs referenced in the previous seal (#5?), that were crying out “how long”. (A repeating theme). God gives them comfort (a theme repeated in Chp 20)

When the 7th scroll is opened, the entire contents are revealed, elaborating on the summary of the previous seals.

The contents are revealed, not in chronological order, but in repeating themes, which is characteristic of the way John writes.

If you will consider it, I’ll take the time to point out the various themes, though I would rather all simply read it themselves and look for the similarities in various events.

Peace to you

You still didn't give me a "why" as to the continuation being a timeline is wrong. I give up on that. It is clearly a timeline, not simply "themes."

 

[John of Japan]

We all get what Jesus promised. I will not envy those that were martyred, during the great tribulation or during others, and rule with Christ, nor will I mock their sacrifice, even if it is just being facetious.

Peace to you

First of all, I didn't "mock their sacrifice." My pet peeve on the BB is when someone puts words in my mouth or a POV I don't hold. Secondly, you still did not answer my point. You obfuscate a lot--simply an observation, not an insult.

I give up on this point, too. I've asked it twice and you do not answer. Se la vie.

 

[John of Japan]

One thing that simply must be understood about dispensationalism is that the foundation is the glory of God. The essence of dispensational theology is that all of history, and the dispensations in particular, exists for the glory of God. It is part of God’s nature that He must gain glory for Himself (John 12:28, 13:32). Man always fails. God always wins. Christ will be glorified.

This includes salvation history, so that the salvation of humans is not the chief end, but it in and of itself glorifies God. “To the normative dispensationalist, the soteriological, or saving, program of God is not the only program but one of the means God is using in the total program of glorifying Himself.” (Charles Ryrie, Dispensationalism, 2nd ed., p. 48).

It is God’s ultimate purpose that all nations glorify Him (Ps. 86:9). In particular, Israel exists for the glory of God (Ps. 22:23), and is often referred to as the “people of God.” Thus, to replace Israel with the church (replacement theology, also called supersessionism), as some theologies do, is to diminish the glory God will receive by rehabilitating Israel in the last days.

With that in mind, the 1000 year reign of Christ is for His glory, something the opponents of the theology rarely understand. Christ's literal earthly reign will glorify Him tremendously, because the earth will be healed (Is. 11), all men will obey Christ, and no crime or war will be allowed. Only Christ can do this. The previous kings and rulers and presidents have all failed in their quest to stamp out crime and have world-wide peace. Even Trump promised peace but is now in a war (a necessary one). Christ will be glorified!

 

[canadyjd]

First of all, I didn't "mock their sacrifice." My pet peeve on the BB is when someone puts words in my mouth or a POV I don't hold. Secondly, you still did not answer my point. You obfuscate a lot--simply an observation, not an insult.

I give up on this point, too. I've asked it twice and you do not answer. Se la vie.

I misunderstood you.

You stated you were being “facetious” (your word) when you asked where all the other Christians would be when the “lucky” martyrs killed during the great tribulation were reigning with Christ for 1000 years.

The word “facetious” means to be funny, not serious, witty., does it not?

My apologies for not seeing the humor in Christians being martyred during the great tribulation.

I see now you were not mocking the martyrs but mocking my understanding of the martyrs.

I did answer your questions as directly as I can. I’m not obfuscating, perhaps I’m missing your point about the timeline in the blowing of the trumpets or you are missing my point of the repeating themes.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

I misunderstood you.

You stated you were being “facetious” (your word) when you asked where all the other Christians would be when the “lucky” martyrs killed during the great tribulation were reigning with Christ for 1000 years.

The facetious part was about us standing around somewhere while the martyrs were honored. It was not speaking of the martyrs themselves, nor was it mocking the martyrs. It was aimed at your view, which leaves everyone out of the millennium--which you apparently do not believe in anyway, so it is a mystery to me why you are interpreting it as you did, the martyrs (and only them) reigning for 1000 years.

The word “facetious” means to be funny, not serious, witty., does it not?

My apologies for not seeing the humor in Christians being martyred during the great tribulation.

I see now you were not mocking the martyrs but mocking my understanding of the martyrs.

I was not aiming at mocking them, you, or anyone. I was just be facetious, not mocking (two different things).

I did answer your questions as directly as I can. I’m not obfuscating, perhaps I’m missing your point about the timeline in the blowing of the trumpets or you are missing my point of the repeating themes.

Peace to you

You do not believe that the events in Revelation are supposed to be continuous, as on a timeline. I believe that Revelation 4-20 is a prophecy of a time period of 7 years + 1000 years, so I aimed at refuting your view and proving mine. I did not see where you refuted my refutation.

 

[canadyjd]

One thing that simply must be understood about dispensationalism is that the foundation is the glory of God……

I started this thread to discuss the repeating themes found in Revelation, not an explanation of dispensationalism.

I gave as an example, the repeated mention of the martyrs.

Will you address that?

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

I started this thread to discuss the repeating themes found in Revelation, not an explanation of dispensationalism.

I gave as an example, the repeated mention of the martyrs.

Will you address that?

Peace to you

To me the whole book is to be literally interpreted, including the mention of martyrs. Since I believe in literal interpretation, any mention of martyrs in the book is chronological.

Therefore I don't see mentions of martyrs as being thematic. There are very few mentions, and they represent different people, not the same group of those around the throne. The martyrs you are referring to only appear in Rev. 6, so just one time.

 

[canadyjd]

The facetious part was about us standing around somewhere while the martyrs were honored.

You stated your pet pev on the BB is people claiming you have a POV that you do not hold. That is what you are doing to me. No where do I say other Christians are “standing around” while the martyrs are being honored, as if they have nothing else to do.

It was not speaking of the martyrs themselves, nor was it mocking the martyrs. It was aimed at your view,

Got it

which leaves everyone out of the millennium--which you apparently do not believe in anyway, so it is a mystery to me why you are interpreting it as you did, the martyrs (and only them) reigning for 1000 years.

Did I say “only them”? Are you putting words in my mouth I did not say?

I was not aiming at mocking them, you, or anyone. I was just be facetious, not mocking (two different things).

Got it. Apologies for using the word mocking.

You do not believe that the events in Revelation are supposed to be continuous, as on a timeline. I believe that Revelation 4-20 is a prophecy of a time period of 7 years + 1000 years, so I aimed at refuting your view and proving mine. I did not see where you refuted my refutation.

I gave you the example of the martyrs. They are mentioned with the opening of a seal (5?). They are mentioned again after the opening of the 6th seal and before the 7th seal. They are mentioned again in Rev 19-20, with very similar language.

You had stated before, if I remember correctly, that you couldn’t find anywhere where Christian’s were martyred during the great tribulation. I gave you the mention of the martyrs after the 6th seal where “a multitude yo great to count” were martyred “during the great tribulation.”

I have enjoyed our conversation. I apologize it has turned ugly. I’ll try to do better.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

You stated your pet pev on the BB is people claiming you have a POV that you do not hold. That is what you are doing to me. No where do I say other Christians are “standing around” while the martyrs are being honored, as if they have nothing else to do.

Great! Then what are they doing? That's all I was asking with my facetiousness (which I have never thought of as being a kind of mocking).

Got it

Did I say “only them”? Are you putting words in my mouth I did not say?

Okay. So then, what are we doing while the martyrs are ruling? Do we also reign? And I'm struggling with the thought that you don't believe the millennium is literal, yet you are speaking of it as if it is.

Got it. Apologies for using the word mocking.

No problem.

I gave you the example of the martyrs. They are mentioned with the opening of a seal (5?). They are mentioned again after the opening of the 6th seal and before the 7th seal. They are mentioned again in Rev 19-20, with very similar language.

Thanks!

You had stated before, if I remember correctly, that you couldn’t find anywhere where Christian’s were martyred during the great tribulation.

You do not remember correctly. I have no idea where that came from. I certainly don't hold to it.

I gave you the mention of the martyrs after the 6th seal where “a multitude yo great to count” were martyred “during the great tribulation.”

So then, what does the theme mean to us as Christians? How does it help us live right and serve Christ?

I have enjoyed our conversation. I apologize it has turned ugly. I’ll try to do better.

Peace to you

Thanks!

 

[canadyjd]

You do not believe that the events in Revelation are supposed to be continuous, as on a timeline. I believe that Revelation 4-20 is a prophecy of a time period of 7 years + 1000 years, so I aimed at refuting your view and proving mine. I did not see where you refuted my refutation.

Revelation 11 says God is reigning on the earth (words to that effect).

Revelation 12 gives the account of Satan being thrown out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels (that happened just after the creation)

Revelation 12 recounts Christ being born. Does that happen during a 7 year period after the “rapture”?

Please explain how Satan being thrown out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels and Christ being born occurs during a 7 year period after the rapture?

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

Revelation 11 says God is reigning on the earth (words to that effect).

Yes. And? What verse are you talking about?

Revelation 12 gives the account of Satan being thrown out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels (that happened just after the creation)

Correct. And?

Revelation 12 recounts Christ being born. Does that happen during a 7 year period after the “rapture”?

It's relating a past event, so I see no problem there.

Please explain how Satan being thrown out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels and Christ being born occurs during a 7 year period after the rapture?

Peace to you

No need to. I see no problem with Satan being ejected from Heaven, and the birth of Christ there is the historical story. Satan currently has access to Heaven, as Job 1 shows.

 

[canadyjd]

….
It's relating a past event, so I see no problem there.

No need to. I see no problem with Satan being ejected from Heaven, and the birth of Christ there is the historical story. Satan currently has access to Heaven, as Job 1 shows.

Ok, how does that fit with your statement that Revelation 4-20 is a continuous time period of 7 years + the 1000?

Are you saying it is not a continuous time period, but has references to historical stories? Hummmm, perhaps those references to historical stories are presented in repeating themes.

Either it is a continuous time period or not.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

Ok, how does that fit with your statement that Revelation 4-20 is a continuous time period of 7 years + the 1000?

Are you saying it is not a continuous time period, but has references to historical stories? Hummmm, perhaps those references to historical stories are presented in repeating themes.

Either it is a continuous time period or not.

Peace to you

It is continuous, there are historical references (many books have such, including the book of Acts), and there are recurring themes. (I don't believe I ever said there were not themes.)

 

[Charlie24]

Ok, how does that fit with your statement that Revelation 4-20 is a continuous time period of 7 years + the 1000?

Are you saying it is not a continuous time period, but has references to historical stories? Hummmm, perhaps those references to historical stories are presented in repeating themes.

Either it is a continuous time period or not.

Peace to you

Canadyjd, everything in Rev. is a continuous time period revealed as it unfolds, it's seen by John in spirit of what's to come.

Even the 7 letters are are a continuous time period leading up to the Great Tribulation that begins in Chp. 6. They represent the Church from the day of John until the end of the Church Age.

The first letter is to Ephesus which was the 1st century Church of John's day.

Smyrna, is the martyr Church from 100ad - 300 ad.

Pergamos, is the State Church that laid the groundwork for the RCC, 300ad - 500ad.

Thyatira, is the Papal Church, the RCC and continues to this day, 500ad - present.

Sardis, is the Reformation Church of the reformers and continues to this day, 1500ad - present.

Philadelphia, is the Missionary Church and continues to this day, 1800ad - present.

Laodicea, is the Apostate Church and is present today along with the true Church.

 

[Charlie24]

Canadyjd, everything in Rev. is a continuous time period revealed as it unfolds, it's seen by John in spirit of what's to come.

Even the 7 letters are are a continuous time period leading up to the Great Tribulation that begins in Chp. 6. They represent the Church from the day of John until the end of the Church Age.

The first letter is to Ephesus which was the 1st century Church of John's day.

Smyrna, is the martyr Church from 100ad - 300 ad.

Pergamos, is the State Church that laid the groundwork for the RCC, 300ad - 500ad.

Thyatira, is the Papal Church, the RCC and continues to this day, 500ad - present.

Sardis, is the Reformation Church of the reformers and continues to this day, 1500ad - present.

Philadelphia, is the Missionary Church and continues to this day, 1800ad - present.

Laodicea, is the Apostate Church and is present today along with the true Church.

Canadyjd, in Rev. 4:1 when John seen a door open in Heaven and heard a trumpet sounding as if it were talking with him, that said come up hither and I will show you the things that must be hereafter, that is the Rapture taking place in the sequence of Revelation.

 

[Charlie24]

Canadyjd, in Rev. 4:1 when John seen a door open in Heaven and heard a trumpet sounding as if it were talking with him, that said come up hither and I will show you the things that must be hereafter, that is the Rapture taking place in the sequence of Revelation.

When Rev. 4 begins the Church Age has run it's course and the True Church, those in Christ are Raptured out of this world.

John tells us what he see's in chp. 5 immediately after the Rapture, and now beginning in chp. 6 the wrath of God is beginning as Christ open the seals.

 

[Charlie24]

When Rev. 4 begins the Church Age has run it's course and the True Church, those in Christ are Raptured out of this world.

John tells us what he see's in chp. 5 immediately after the Rapture, and now beginning in chp. 6 the wrath of God is beginning as Christ open the seals.

The repeating themes that you are talking about are the overlaps of the continuation of what's taking place.

The sequence is from the day of John the Church Age running it's course to the New Heaven and the New Earth.

It's given in chronological order.