Gender-neutral Versions

[Ben1445]

Actually, for males pretending to be females, the eunuch is an appropriate analogy. A eunuch is castrated. A male transitioning to fake female is also castrated. Similar to how females trying to become male.

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)
involving the non-medical removal or injury of external female genitalia, is frequently cited as the female equivalent of castration due to the severe, permanent damage caused.

Androgyne is a non-binary gender identity in which one is simultaneously a man/masculine and a woman/feminine, or in between the two.

But the discussion is not able to be included in the text given.

who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

Instead I would say that this passage describes them better.

Romans 1:24-27
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

 

[Salty]

I do not like the masculine singular “men” when the sense is “all humanity”.

1 Timothy 2:3,4

What concerns me is that would also exclude children

 

[Ben1445]

What concerns me is that would also exclude children

Understood properly, it excludes animals, angels, plants and other dust that may not be classified or called what God created when He made man as male and female.

This is like saying that protecting women’s sports doesn’t include schools where children attend. Not only is it not intended to be that way, it makes me wonder what the motivation is for people who play with the language to make it what it is not.
It is possible that some people don’t understand that man is a name for mankind and humanity.

a
(1): an individual human
especially : an adult male human
(2): a man belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation)

—usually used in combination
councilman


b
: the human race : HUMANKIND

Merriam Webster’s dictionary.


The same inclusive definition made it into the dictionary twice in the first two definitions in a modern dictionary.
Why do we ignore them?
Are children not gendered or people until they are adults??

I think to be stumbling over gender inclusion is straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

 

[Salty]

KEY WORD - Intended !

 

[Ben1445]

KEY WORD - Intended !

Surely you don’t think that the so called “non-inclusive” translations intended to leave out women and children?

I don’t think we disagree here but you are not giving me much to go on.

This is another reason I prefer in person discussions. Voice inflections, facial expressions, and body language do so much for conversation that text alone doesn’t.

To summarize, I think the translators intended the inclusion of all people in the word man or men in the examples given.
I don’t see a need to change that given that it is still a very widespread and acceptable definition of man.

 

[JesusFan]

Surely you don’t think that the so called “non-inclusive” translations intended to leave out women and children?

I don’t think we disagree here but you are not giving me much to go on.

This is another reason I prefer in person discussions. Voice inflections, facial expressions, and body language do so much for conversation that text alone doesn’t.

To summarize, I think the translators intended the inclusion of all people in the word man or men in the examples given.
I don’t see a need to change that given that it is still a very widespread and acceptable definition of man.

2 main reasons for the translation such as NRSv and new Niv would be that they wanted to try to get men and women as having same roles and positions, and to try to undercut alleged male Parochialism of the OT

 

[Jerome]

....and to undercut alleged male Parochialism of the OT

You really have a way with words!
Have you considered doing Bible translation work?

 

[easywolf32]

They're an abomination is what they are.

 

[Deacon]

2 main reasons for the translation such as NRSv and new Niv would be that they wanted to try to get men and women as having same roles and positions, and to try to undercut alleged male Parochialism of the OT

In Hebrew, almost every word is gendered. Most of the gendering is filtered out in our English translations but English too has its own peculiar ways with gender.
So I believe that it's important to refine the way gender is communicated in Scripture.

The preface to the JPS TANAKH - gender-sensitive edition illuminates a passage to illustrate this point.

1 Samuel 11:12–13
(ESV 2025) Then the people said to Samuel, “Who is it that said, ‘Shall Saul reign over us?’ Bring the men, that we may put them to death.” But Saul said, “Not a man shall be put to death this day, for today the LORD has worked salvation in Israel.”

...In 1 Samuel, when King Saul hears a proposal that certain rogues be executed (11.12; cf. 10.27), he demurs, replying: “No man shall be put to death this day!” (11.13, NJPS, first published in 1978). Although the scoundrels in question are almost certainly men, this fact is beside the point, because the king is making a categorical statement. NJPS surely employed man here in its broadest classical sense (with no man meaning nobody). Nowadays, however, man is seldom used in that way; rather, the king’s point would normally be expressed in more clearly gender-neutral terms. The baseline of expected wording has shifted. And so Saul’s apparent departure from the (new) normal way of speaking evokes an impression that he is making an issue of the maleness of those implicated. Although that inference is blunted by the fact that their gender is not otherwise a concern in this story, it leaves Saul’s utterance (as rendered in NJPS) sounding odd. (Preface to the JPS TANAKH - gender sensitive edition)

(NASB 2020) Then the people said to Samuel, “Who is he that said, ‘Shall Saul reign over us?’ Bring the men, so that we may put them to death!” But Saul said, “Not a single person shall be put to death this day, for today the LORD has brought about victory in Israel.”

(JPS TANAKH 2023) The people then said to Samuel, “Who was it said, ‘Shall Saul be king over us?’ Hand over those involved--and we will put them to death!” But Saul replied, “Nobody shall be put to death this day! For this day GOD has brought victory in Israel.”

Rob

 

[Deacon]

A recent thread referred to a passage in the epistle to the Hebrews.

Hebrews 12:14–15 (AV 1873)
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; [bolding added]

The fact that the translators of the KJV have identified that they inserted the words, men and man, shows that at that time, there was no stigma attached to using those words, it was understood a meaning all people.

That was then, this is now...our language is changing. Use of such a phrase is far less common and may be polarizing.

Most modern versions translate it without adding the masculine gender.

Hebrews 12:14–15 (ESV 2025)
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; [bolding added]

Rob

 

[Ben1445]

A recent thread referred to a passage in the epistle to the Hebrews.

Hebrews 12:14–15 (AV 1873)
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; [bolding added]

The fact that the translators of the KJV have identified that they inserted the words, men and man, shows that at that time, there was no stigma attached to using those words, it was understood a meaning all people.

That was then, this is now...our language is changing. Use of such a phrase is far less common and may be polarizing.

Most modern versions translate it without adding the masculine gender.

Hebrews 12:14–15 (ESV 2025)
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; [bolding added]

Rob

A good point.
But the first two definitions quoted in post 47 are from a modern dictionary found on the World Wide Web, believe it or not!!

Mankind as a whole is still the primary definition of the word even though the most frequent usage is gender specific just like it was a long time ago when the older translations were made.


I just see it as a way that the Romans 1 type of sinners find fault with God through the Bible (or should that be by the Bible?)

God created man. That includes two genders ( plus eunuchs for all you people who don’t understand that your dna doesn’t change)

 

[Jerome]

A good point.
But the first two definitions quoted in post 47 are from a modern dictionary found on the World Wide Web, believe it or not!!

Mankind as a whole is still the primary definition of the word even though the most frequent usage is gender specific just like it was a long time ago when the older translations were made.

Do you mean post 43?

Explain, how does Merriam-Webster indicate the "primary definition" of a word?
Or the "most frequent usage"?

 

[Ascetic X]

Mankind as a whole is still the primary definition of the word even though the most frequent usage is gender specific just like it was a long time ago when the older translations were made.

Merriam-Webster definition of “man” indicates male is the primary meaning.

1
a(1)
: an individual human
especially : an adult male human
(2)
: a man belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation)

—usually used in combination
councilman
(3)
: HUSBAND
I now pronounce you man and wife.

(4)
: LOVER
He was her man.

b
: the human race : HUMANKIND
the history of man

c
: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) that is anatomically related to the great apes but distinguished especially by notable development of the brain with a resultant capacity for articulate (see ARTICULATE entry 1 sense 1a) speech and abstract reasoning, and is the sole living representative of the hominid family
broadly : any living or extinct hominid
d(1)
: one possessing in high degree the qualities considered distinctive of manhood (such as courage, strength, and vigor)
(2)
obsolete : the quality or state of being manly : MANLINESS
e
: FELLOW, CHAP

—used as mode of familiar address
f

—used interjectionally to express intensity of feeling
man, what a game

2
a
: INDIVIDUAL, PERSON
a man could get killed there

b
: the individual who can fulfill or who has been chosen to fulfill one's requirements
she's your man


3
a
: a feudal tenant : VASSAL
b
: an adult male servant
c
men plural : the working force as distinguished from the employer and usually the management

 

[Jerome]

Please learn How to Read a Dictionary Entry (Merriam-Webster).

 

[Ascetic X]

Please learn ….

Please learn how it is semantics, not feminism, to want “men” to be rendered as “everyone” or “humanity” where it is appropriate in the Bible. God does not want all males to be saved, He wants all human beings to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3,4

This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Ben1445]

Do you mean post 43?

Explain, how does Merriam-Webster indicate the "primary definition" of a word?
Or the "most frequent usage"?

Yes I did.

The primary definition is the first definition. The usage is indicated by the phrase especially.

It doesn’t come with statistics.

 

[Ascetic X]

Yes I did.

The primary definition is the first definition. The usage is indicated by the phrase especially.

It doesn’t come with statistics.

Merriam-Webster definition of “man” indicates human, especially a male, is the primary meaning.

1
a(1)
: an individual human
especially : an adult male human

 

[Ben1445]

Merriam-Webster definition of “man” indicates male is the primary meaning.

But before saying especially an adult male, it defines the word as an “individual human”
This is the first definition.

1
a(1)
: an individual human
especially : an adult male human
(2)
: a man belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation)

—usually used in combination
councilman
(3)
: HUSBAND
I now pronounce you man and wife.

(4)
: LOVER
He was her man.

b
: the human race : HUMANKIND
the history of man

c
: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) that is anatomically related to the great apes but distinguished especially by notable development of the brain with a resultant capacity for articulate (see ARTICULATE entry 1 sense 1a) speech and abstract reasoning, and is the sole living representative of the hominid family
broadly : any living or extinct hominid
d(1)
: one possessing in high degree the qualities considered distinctive of manhood (such as courage, strength, and vigor)
(2)
obsolete : the quality or state of being manly : MANLINESS
e
: FELLOW, CHAP

—used as mode of familiar address
f

—used interjectionally to express intensity of feeling
man, what a game

2
a
: INDIVIDUAL, PERSON
a man could get killed there

b
: the individual who can fulfill or who has been chosen to fulfill one's requirements
she's your man


3
a
: a feudal tenant : VASSAL
b
: an adult male servant
c
men plural : the working force as distinguished from the employer and usually the management

I did trim down the extra definition. I didn’t figure it was super important to the discussion. But I guess my take on the dictionary has been called into question.

 

[Ben1445]

Merriam-Webster definition of “man” indicates human, especially a male, is the primary meaning.

1
a(1)
: an individual human
especially : an adult male human

Watch your punctuation. It means something.
Also, the word especially doesn’t mean exclusively.

 

[Jerome]

The primary definition is the first definition. The usage is indicated by the phrase especially.

Oh brother! That's not how it works.

Please learn How to Read a Dictionary Entry (Merriam-Webster).