Did Aaron Invent Rock Music 3400 or So Years Ago Before Elvis?

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are making assumptions here.

David danced before the Lord with all his might, the people shouted joyfully, blowing the rams horn. Michal saw David leaping and dancing criticized him for acting in an undignified way.

Many on this board would have joined Michal in her criticism of David's worship.

What assumptions are you claiming that I am making and what is your evidence for your claims?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Early on the rock beat was associated with African paganism designed to create a sexual ritualistic mood. This was ultimately a racist claim designed to protect White culture.

This was changed to a dangerous beat (driving drums, 4/4 time) which left people wanting to have sex or commit violence.

So I approach this topic with the opinion that a significant segment of the generation of Chriatians now in their late 60's and older were the instrument Satan used against Christians which resulted in a few unChurched generations.

Much evidence shows that the rock beat is connected to the very things that you wrongly claim to be "a racist claim designed to protect White culture."

The same goes for your claims about "a dangerous beat."

 

[John of Japan]

And... I was wrong. I listened to spme of that 70's and 80's rock with a driving beat again. I do like it. Just not all the time.


@John of Japan

I should also include a predisposition I have based on my experience.

I grew up in conservative Baptist churches. The generation before me (now in their mid 60's and older) fed us propaganda when I was a teen in order to persuade us against listening to rock music.

It turned out that a lot of what they told us was blatantly false. It was pseudo-science and "old wives tales" taught to us for supposedly good reasons.

But once a lot of what we were told were proven to be lies, it had the opposite effect as it eroded trust in church elders and leaders.

Frank Garlock was involved in this propaganda. That is one reason I cannot respect his conclusions (regardless of his experience in music, he is not qualified to give an unbiased report). It would be like asking a Calvinist whether Calvinism is correct.


I will give you some examples.

Early on the rock beat was associated with African paganism designed to create a sexual ritualistic mood. This was ultimately a racist claim designed to protect White culture.

This was changed to a dangerous beat (driving drums, 4/4 time) which left people wanting to have sex or commit violence. Ultimately this called into question exactly what ideas those "godly" mem were concealing in their own lives. Why would they associate energetic with sex? Our conclusion was that they had perverted hearts.

There were false claims about specific rock bands. The spaceman on Journey's album was a demon, Hotel California was about a cult (which was pictured on that album with that model on the balcony...that woman...really being the cult leader), there was a Queen song that if played backwards...if you listen very carefully with a little imagination...promotes marijuana, the anti-drinking song Suicide Solution promoted suicide, the anti-war song War Pigs promoted Satanism, ..... I could go on but why? I doubt anybody makes those claims today.

My point is once a segment is caught lying it is very difficult to take them seriously on the same topic.


I understand the intention was to keep the youth from mixing with other races, or to keep them from entertaining dangerous media. But the method was less than honest and the Church as a whole suffered because of that sin.

Many my age left the faith, dismissed Christianity as hypocritical myth, a method of control men use for their designs because they realized the Church was lying to them.


So I approach this topic with the opinion that a significant segment of the generation of Chriatians now in their late 60's and older were the instrument Satan used against Christians which resulted in a few unChurched generations.

Those Christians had good intentions, but not a good ethic or integrity. It showed me just how careful we need to be with what is true.

I have some objections to what you have written here, but I'm going to bow out of this thread. I know little of rock or pop music past 1970. That was the year I went off to Bible college (no radios in dorms) and then seminary, then working in my grandfather's ministry for almost a year. In 1977 I began deputation for Japan, then spent 33 years there with no interest in rock (especially the Japanese version, which I believe is awful). I now teach in a Bible college and seminary, and am not interested in modern pop or rock. (I mean, "Madonna" and the like? Yuck.)

So have a good thread without me. Sayonara.

 

[JonC]

What assumptions are you claiming that I am making and what is your evidence for your claims?

I am saying that you are assuming that godly Isralite worship was never wild in any manner like that they practiced with the golden calf.

I base that claim on this comment:

godly Israelite worship was never wild in any manner like that.

I am also saying (I used assumptions, plural) that you are assuming the style of the music was itself ungodly (an ungodly style of music).

I base that claim on this comment:

As for the style of music, we can say with certainty that it was an ungodly style of music musicological specifics of the style of music.

Scripture does not criticize the music style. It does not even describe the music style as "warlike".

From a distance Joshua heard noise from the camp and thought it may have been a battle. Moses said it is not the sound of victory, or defeat, but of singing.

 

[JonC]

Much evidence shows that the rock beat is connected to the very things that you wrongly claim to be "a racist claim designed to protect White culture."

The same goes for your claims about "a dangerous beat."

There is no evidence at all. There is pseudo-science, but as a Christian I am not given to such things. As a believer I discern the spirit of a thing by its fruit.

Also, initially the "rock beat" was a racist claim. It was not limited to Christians but to our society in general. The claim was that rock adopted an African beat (and influences from other Black influenced music). Much of White America wanted to keep "Black elements" from affecting White people.

 

[JonC]

I mean, "Madonna" and the like? Yuck

Yep. Yuck. See? We agree.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I am saying that you are assuming that godly Isralite worship was never wild in any manner like that they practiced with the golden calf.

Scripture does not criticize the music style. It does not even describe the music style as "warlike".

From a distance Joshua heard noise from the camp and thought it may have been a battle. Moses said it is not the sound of victory, or defeat, but of singing.

God is not a God of confusion. The fruit of the Spirit is temperance. To be acceptable, worship must be done decently and in order.

God has never accepted any kind of wild behavior in worship. Never.

Scripture does not have to criticize it explicitly nor does it have to directly say that it was "warlike."

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

There is no evidence at all. There is pseudo-science, but as a Christian I am not given to such things. As a believer I discern the spirit of a thing by its fruit.

Also, initially the "rock beat" was a racist claim. It was not limited to Christians but to our society in general. The claim was that rock adopted an African beat (and influences from other Black influenced music). Much of White America wanted to keep "Black elements" from affecting White people.

There is no evidence because you say so? Pseudo-science? You have the ability to discern what things are demonic by experiencing them?

Before you can establish that anything was "racist," you have to show where Scripture states what is and isn't "racist."

 

[Mr. Lunt]

This does not prove anything about evil people originating classical music. You have no proof for your apparent claim.

I could list numerous ungodly rock musicians, but that would take this thread in a direction that would not be helpful. Again, if you need help finding out if there are any ungodly rock musicians, feel free to do some research. It will not be hard to find.

Furthermore, I have not made any claims that all classical music is godly. The crucial question is whether you have evidence to show that it was originated by ungodly people for ungodly purposes.

So I’d push back on the premise of this whole discussion to begin with. Do you know about the genetic fallacy?

 

[rockytopva]

It's like... Scripture please?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

So I’d push back on the premise of this whole discussion to begin with. Do you know about the genetic fallacy?

What does the Bible teach us about a so-called "genetic fallacy"?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

It's like... Scripture please?

It's unclear to whom you are directing this comment and what you are asking for.

 

[JonC]

God is not a God of confusion. The fruit of the Spirit is temperance. To be acceptable, worship must be done decently and in order.

God has never accepted any kind of wild behavior in worship. Never.

Scripture does not have to criticize it explicitly nor does it have to directly say that it was "warlike."

The problem is you, like Michal, are using "wild" to mean "undignified" in your own subjective mind.

I can picture you and Michal condemning David's worship and dancing as making a fool out of himself.

I am not saying that your worship is unacceptable to God. I am saying that your criticism of other people's music culture and style is sinful.


Scripture does have to criticize the music style as unacceptable to God in order for your declaration it os unacceptable to God to be biblical.

You have elevated yourself to the place of God, which is wrong.


Here is an example -

I could say that God hates traditional hymns because they are too subdued. God encourages us to worship with all of our heart, in spirit and truth. This is why we see Isralites using drums, symbols, horns, and dancing. They expressed their joy.

But IF I were to make that declaration THEN I would be guilty of your sin. The music others use in worship is not my business. He will make them stand.

 

[JonC]

There is no evidence because you say so? Pseudo-science? You have the ability to discern what things are demonic by experiencing them?

Before you can establish that anything was "racist," you have to show where Scripture states what is and isn't "racist."

???

Your post is nonsense.

We do not have to find passages describing racism in order to identify racism in the United States.

Refusing to allow a man in your resturant because of that person's race is racism. This is not in the Bible, but it is racism.

In the Bible we do not see much at all in terms of racism. The division was primarily religion (Jew vs Gentile). We do see "Black is beautiful" in a defense of hating one because of their skin, so we can assume racism existed.


Making false claims in order to preserve "White culture" by keeping out "Black influences" is racism by definition.

 

[JonC]

What does the Bible teach us about a so-called "genetic fallacy"?

You are falling away from reality.

Here is your logic -

Do aeroplanes exist? No, because they are not in the Bible.

Do people suffer from clinical depression? No, because it is not defined by Scripture.

Do logical fallacies exist? No, because the Bible does not list them.

You are increasingly moving the discussion towards silliness.


Anyway, the genetic fallacy (fallacy of origins) is basing the claim of an argument on the origin of its claims.

We often see this fallacy in Christmas and Easter debates.

 

[Mr. Lunt]

I disagree. The Spirit explicitly points our attention to the composite sound emanating from the camp that was an indistinct, uncertain, warlike sound of sinful people shouting in their singing while they are wildly dancing in a way that brought them into shame with their enemies. Godly Israelite music never sounded like that, and godly Israelite worship was never wild in any manner like that.

As for the style of music, we can say with certainty that it was an ungodly style of music in spite of our not being able to know much at all about the musicological specifics of the style of music.

I am not sure you understand my argument. How about I steel man yours. You can tell me mine and then we’ll know we aren’t talking past each other.

You are saying that in this passage there is:
-music
-dancing
-warlike noises
-shouting
-idol worship
-debauchery
-(maybe other clues)

And that this is a parallel to the modern day rock music scene. Even though the music may have been different stylistically, it was rock music at its core because of these parallels. Is that accurate?

What does the Bible teach us about a so-called "

What does the Bible teach us about a so-called "genetic fallacy"?

The Bible doesn’t say anything about logical fallacies. I guess that means I have lost the argument. I will cede the victory to you and bow out of the discussion.

 

[JonC]

I am not sure you understand my argument. How about I steel man yours. You can tell me mine and then we’ll know we aren’t talking past each other.

You are saying that in this passage there is:
-music
-dancing
-warlike noises
-shouting
-idol worship
-debauchery
-(maybe other clues)

And that this is a parallel to the modern day rock music scene. Even though the music may have been different stylistically, it was rock music at its core because of these parallels. Is that accurate?



The Bible doesn’t say anything about logical fallacies. I guess that means I have lost the argument. I will cede the victory to you and bow out of the discussion.

When I think "warlike music" I think Rise of the Valkyrie.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I am not sure you understand my argument. How about I steel man yours. You can tell me mine and then we’ll know we aren’t talking past each other.

You are saying that in this passage there is:
-music
-dancing
-warlike noises
-shouting
-idol worship
-debauchery
-(maybe other clues)

And that this is a parallel to the modern day rock music scene. Even though the music may have been different stylistically, it was rock music at its core because of these parallels. Is that accurate?

No, that is not accurate. I have never said that the music of the Golden Calf Incident was rock music.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The problem is you, like Michal, are using "wild" to mean "undignified" in your own subjective mind.

I can picture you and Michal condemning David's worship and dancing as making a fool out of himself.

I am not saying that your worship is unacceptable to God. I am saying that your criticism of other people's music culture and style is sinful.


Scripture does have to criticize the music style as unacceptable to God in order for your declaration it os unacceptable to God to be biblical.

You have elevated yourself to the place of God, which is wrong.


Here is an example -

I could say that God hates traditional hymns because they are too subdued. God encourages us to worship with all of our heart, in spirit and truth. This is why we see Isralites using drums, symbols, horns, and dancing. They expressed their joy.

But IF I were to make that declaration THEN I would be guilty of your sin. The music others use in worship is not my business. He will make them stand.

No, the text says that the people were "naked," and the Hebrew word means "unrestrained." There is zero legitimate basis to say that God has ever accepted worship where anything was wild because the people were "unrestrained."

You keep making baseless accusations about what I would say about Michal, David, etc. You have zero evidence about what my views of that passage are.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

???

Your post is nonsense.

We do not have to find passages describing racism in order to identify racism in the United States.

Refusing to allow a man in your resturant because of that person's race is racism. This is not in the Bible, but it is racism.

In the Bible we do not see much at all in terms of racism. The division was primarily religion (Jew vs Gentile). We do see "Black is beautiful" in a defense of hating one because of their skin, so we can assume racism existed.


Making false claims in order to preserve "White culture" by keeping out "Black influences" is racism by definition.

Your statements are just your baseless opinions. Apparently, according to you, the Bible has to say in a passage that something is sinful, otherwise it is godly and pleasing to God. But, when it comes to your opinions, they are true whether the Bible says anything to support your views or not.

You have zero basis to call people "racists" for rejecting music just because you think that music is good.