Propitiation

[Silverhair]

I think the difference is the same as what occurs in discussions in the scope of atonement. In both cases, if all you are saying is that propitiation is available to anyone in the whole world who might come to Christ then I agree. But I don't think it requires that we claim then that it is actually universal. The reason being, as the Calvinist would say, is that the terms mean an actual real thing taking place and like you mentioned, can be used even as a verb.

It would be like if I said "I have enough red paint that I can paint every single person in the whole world red". So I could universally offer to do so and it be a true offer. But the fact still is that if I paint you red - you are truly and literally painted red. I believe that a universal use of propitiation in 1 John would be like saying "he painted everyone red" or "propitiates God for everyone" which has to mean that actual propitiation took place for everyone - which is not true. Propitiation, atonement, and even my silly being painted red, is an obvious real action that either is, or isn't. If it is, you are saved (or painted red), if not, it could still be that the "offer" stands and is a real offer - but the difference, and I hope you can see it, is propitiation or atonement cannot be kept in buckets and exist as such like paint. There is where the illustration breaks down and it's why I think using those words like you are is slightly off. You mentioned the noun/verb use of propitiation. And you are using propitiation as if it was in a bucket, like my red paint. The difference is that my bucket of paint really is a "thing" and if I paint someone that becomes the true meaning of what occurs - the fact that the verb and noun "paint" is the same English word is incidental. "Propitiation" or "atonement" only have significance or meaning as to what they do and have no meaning as a substance that could be kept because their only meaning is as they are being applied or done. That is what a Calvinist is worried about if you say atonement or propitiation is universal. To him, he sees it as if you were saying universally, everyone gets painted red, when what you mean is that everyone is being offered a red paint job, and there is plenty of red paint in a bucket, to go around. Obviously, if everyone gets painted red they are truly painted, not potentially painted or offered to be painted. If everyone's sins are atoned for, or if God is propitiated towards everyone - they are saved, not potentially saved. And while that does make atonement or propitiation particular for those saved - it does not mean that the "offer" is not there for everyone.

Dave it is a noun in three of those verses and you want it to be a verb. You are holding to your calvinism rather that the actual word of God.

Christ is the propitiation [noun] that the Father sent. He is the propitiation [the means of appeasing] for the whole world unless you think there is some other way that God can be appeased.

The propitiation is for the whole world, salvation through is only for those that have freely trusted in the risen Christ.

You are confusing propitiation and salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

Once again you are adding words to the sacred text. The word 'means' does not appear, and nor does 'only.' The Lord Jesus is not the 'means of appeasing God,' He is the propitiation (yes, it's a noun) of our sins. As I wrote before, I fully agree that Christ is the only way for anyone to be saved. But that is not what the text is saying.

And once again you are ignoring the word of God.

Since you object to the words "means" & "only"do you Calvinist's think there is another means of our salvation other than Christ? Is He not the only way?

Since you deny that Christ is the means of appeasing God then I have to wonder why you think the Father sent Him and what you think John was actually saying?

You do realize, at least I hope you do, that the word propitiation can be both a noun and a verb. In these three verses Rom_3:25, 1Jn_2:2 & 1Jn_4:10 it is in the noun form and is telling us what Christ is. He is the means of appeasing God.

In Heb_2:17 it is in the verb form and that is telling us what Christ did.

The first three verses do not support your view. You continue to make the same error. John is not saying the whole world is appeased but rather that Christ is the only means by which the whole world can be appeased.

Based on the evidence from John's writings and the rest of scripture one can correctly conclude that Christ truly is the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice, for all, both believers and unbelievers, providing reconciliation for all, effective by faith.

Martin you keep saying no but you have yet to provide any support for your position.

 

[JonC]

Well, you yourself are making God out to be a liar because you have said that you believe Isaiah 53:10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise [or 'crush'] Him; He has put Him to grief.' So you believe that God was pleased to bruise or crush the Lord Jesus and to put Him to grief.

Do I believe God was pleased to bruise Jesus OR do I believe the Lord desired to crush Him, causing Him grief?

Obviously I believe the latter (God's words rather than yours). It pleased God to bruise Him. It was God's will, God's predetermined plan.

You forget that Scripture interprets Scripture. The word חָפֵ֤ץ means "pleased", "delighted", "contented", "willed".

What does the Bible say? Does God take pleasure in such things? No. But the Bible does say it was God's will and His predetermined plan (which is evident in Isaiah 53:10 by the 2nd part of the verse).


You have a very bad habit of looking through possible definitions to find one that fits your theories rather than the passage, making your philosophy rather than Scripture interpret Scripture.


But to answer your question - yes, I absolutely agree with Isaiah 53:10. I disagree with your rearranging of words and the philosophy you read into the passage.

 

[JonC]

@Ben1445

What verse are you thinking of that states God cannot forgive sins - that God must punish sins on somebody (whether the sinner or Christ)?

What verse are you thinking of that states what Jesus suffered was God's wrath?


I ask because you claimed to believe God's word rather than some theological system, but it seems that what you believe is the theological system as what you are saying is very different from "what is written".

 

[DaveXR650]

The propitiation is for the whole world, salvation through is only for those that have freely trusted in the risen Christ.

You are confusing propitiation and salvation.

Maybe I am but once again, if you want precise understanding, I think the Calvinists may have this one right. I think you are confused in the meaning of propitiation in that you miss the fact that in a sense, God, in his own mind, is already filled with love towards us or else the plan of having Jesus die to save us would never have been started. But that is not Biblical "propitiation" which, once again, involves a judicial or appeasing sacrifice brought in the form of Christ appearing with his own blood, having been slain on our behalf and to be precise, in our place.

And, in the act of Christ doing this he is functioning as our advocate. The idea of Christ functioning in this way for the general population does not fit the context of 1John. Those who sin are under the wrath of God, he is not propitiated toward them, he has not forgiven them - until they come by faith. As humans living in time, we will never fully comprehend how an atoning sacrifice and the resulting propitiation of God can be done once, in time, and yet be for everyone, everywhere, who believes. So I don't mean to knock your view of this which agrees with the Arminian and free will Baptist view as there really is no way to adequately explain it.

This is why Calvinists, who, concerned that the truth that if your sins are atoned for then you are saved, and since this was done once in time, might cause people to be discouraged if they hear that the atonement is particular - are careful to say "Christ has died. And now if you come you will be saved" rather than Christ has died for your sins, which, technically, if you don't come to him he has not.

 

[Ben1445]

That is a very superficial belief (it is historic Calvinism) that minimizes sin and divine justice.

Calvinist may appreciate it. It is not Calvinism.

Sins cannot be remedied by punishment.

Then what is the point of punishment. Punishment is the answer to sin. An answer is a remedy.

You mention Eve being punished for her sin by pain in childbirth. Do you believe that all women who have children are forgiven of their sins because they have pain in childbirth???

Punishment does not mean complete answer for sin. Jesus means complete answer for sin.

You have adopted Calvin's theory of Atonement. This is probably because the Methodist church

Because I’m a Methodist??? What does this have to do with anything?

was the largest and most influential denomination in the US early on (the second was the Presbyterians) and both adopted basic Calvinism when it comes to the Atonement. You were influenced and chose man over God.

What else do you know about me? What do you see in your crystal ball?

I did the same. I read PSA into those passages as well, adding to God's words.

I’m not reading into them. I actually believe that the words that they were translated into carry the meaning.

I know traditional Christianity makes no sense to you.

Thanks for the ad hominem. That adds nothing. What I really don’t know is what you are talking about.

When I was in your shoes I was also baffled at how strange early Christian beliefs were.

You don’t have any idea what my shoes are. You think I’m a Calvinist.

I can't help you there. I can only tell you that God's words really do make sense without adding to them or taking away from them. You have to do the work to correct your own understanding.

Well I certainly won’t be following you. You haven’t explained anything.

 

[Ben1445]

@Ben1445

What verse are you thinking of that states God cannot forgive sins - that God must punish sins on somebody (whether the sinner or Christ)?

What makes you think that I don’t believe in forgiveness? Quote me.

What verse are you thinking of that states what Jesus suffered was God's wrath?

Review the thread. I already answered that.

I ask because you claimed to believe God's word rather than some theological system, but it seems that what you believe is the theological system as what you are saying is very different from "what is written".

Read this statement to the guy in your mirror.

 

[Silverhair]

Maybe I am but once again, if you want precise understanding, I think the Calvinists may have this one right. I think you are confused in the meaning of propitiation in that you miss the fact that in a sense, God, in his own mind, is already filled with love towards us or else the plan of having Jesus die to save us would never have been started. But that is not Biblical "propitiation" which, once again, involves a judicial or appeasing sacrifice brought in the form of Christ appearing with his own blood, having been slain on our behalf and to be precise, in our place.

And, in the act of Christ doing this he is functioning as our advocate. The idea of Christ functioning in this way for the general population does not fit the context of 1John. Those who sin are under the wrath of God, he is not propitiated toward them, he has not forgiven them - until they come by faith. As humans living in time, we will never fully comprehend how an atoning sacrifice and the resulting propitiation of God can be done once, in time, and yet be for everyone, everywhere, who believes. So I don't mean to knock your view of this which agrees with the Arminian and free will Baptist view as there really is no way to adequately explain it.

This is why Calvinists, who, concerned that the truth that if your sins are atoned for then you are saved, and since this was done once in time, might cause people to be discouraged if they hear that the atonement is particular - are careful to say "Christ has died. And now if you come you will be saved" rather than Christ has died for your sins, which, technically, if you don't come to him he has not.

Dave you are confusing what Christ is, the means of appeasing God, with what Christ has done, has appeased God.

If John had wanted to say what you need him to have said then he would have used the verbal form of propitiation, ἱλάσκομαι G2433 , but he did not do that.

1Jn 2:2 is clear if you will just read the text without a preconceived idea built in as Calvinist's have done.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is G2076 (G5748) [there is your verb] the propitiation G2434 [the means of appeasing] for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

God demands that the payment for sin be made once and for all. It is Christ Himself, therefore, who becomes {the propitiation} hilasmós G2434, the means which is acceptable to God to satisfy His righteousness or His justice.


You said that "in a sense" God is already filled with love but the bible is clear that He does love the world.
God so loved the world Jn 3:16 that He sent Christ so that the world through Him might be saved Jn 3:17. God sent the son to be the propitiation for the whole world.

Dave reread your post and note that you are using propitiation in the verbal form not the noun form as John has done.

John is telling us what Christ is and you are saying what Christ has done.

If John had used the verbal form of propitiation then you would have a case but he did not so you have too read your Calvinism into the text.

In your last paragraph you say that Christ only died for those that are saved. The bible disagrees with you on that.

Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man
1Jn_2:2 propitiation for the whole world
1Ti_2:5-6 gave Himself a ransom for all
1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers
Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly
Rom_5:8 while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

Calvinism has misunderstood the word of God and missed the truths of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

And once again you are ignoring the word of God.

One of us is, but I think you'll find it's you.

Since you object to the words "means" & "only"do you Calvinist's think there is another means of our salvation other than Christ? Is He not the only way?

Acts 4:11-12. "'This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by with we must be saved.' Christ is not the 'means' of propitiation; He is our propitiation (noun) before God, who set Him forth as such (Romans 3:25). God did not set Him forth as a 'means of propitiation.'

Since you deny that Christ is the means of appeasing God then I have to wonder why you think the Father sent Him and what you think John was actually saying?

Wonder no more. John 6:38-39. "For I have not come down from heaven, not to do My own will [Phil. 2:5-11], but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Christ was sent to make propitiation (verb) for the vast crowd of sinners chosen by God for salvation before the world was (Eph. 1:4-5). So every one of the people in John 6:40 who looks to Christ and comes freely to Him - yes, by his own free will - will find when he gets to heaven that God set His love upon him in eternity, and has drawn him, gently, but firmly and irresistibly, to Himself (Jeremiah 31:3; Romans 8:28-30).

You do realize, at least I hope you do, that the word propitiation can be both a noun and a verb.

If I didn't know before, I do now because you have told me three times, but in fact the British education system is such that I learned quite early in life to distinguish a verb from a noun. In point of fact, 'propitiation' is always a noun. The verbal form is to 'propitiate' or to 'make propitiation.'

In these three verses Rom_3:25, 1Jn_2:2 & 1Jn_4:10 it is in the noun form and is telling us what Christ is. He is the means of appeasing God.

No, you are adding the the word of God. He is the propitiation for our sins, not the means of it.

The first three verses do not support your view. You continue to make the same error. John is not saying the whole world is appeased but rather that Christ is the only means by which the whole world can be appeased.

No. Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world. If you are determined to add further to the word of God and say that He is the propitiation for all the people in the whole world - which the origial text does not say - then God is propitiated (verb) in respect of all the people in the whole world and they are all saved.

Based on the evidence from John's writings and the rest of scripture one can correctly conclude that Christ truly is the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice, for all, both believers and unbelievers, providing reconciliation for all, effective by faith.

John 10:26-28. "But you do not believe because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me, and I give them [i.e. His sheep] eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

Martin you keep saying no but you have yet to provide any support for your position.

As I have said, I have been very busy, but a church meeting has been postponed, so tomorrow morning I should have time (DV) to satisfy your curiosity.

 

[DaveXR650]

You said that "in a sense" God is already filled with love but the bible is clear that He does love the world.
God so loved the world Jn 3:16 that He sent Christ so that the world through Him might be saved Jn 3:17. God sent the son to be the propitiation for the whole world.

Yes. What I was saying was that which you apparently agree with in that even though God started out as loving us and thus set the plan for our redemption in motion before time began, he still required "propitiation", provided by his Son at a later time and place. So to use the word in a general sense as if God started out "propitious" towards us, should not be done where it gets confused with the actual act of propitiation found in scripture whereby Christ, with his own blood, accomplished this before God - resulting in the making right with God and thus sparing them from God's wrath.

I know what you are thinking and I have no problem with this at a practical level: Christ has died for your sins, God has removed all barriers for you to come to him, a pardon has been declared, and you are bid to come. I express it the same way if someone asks. Theologically though, it's a little iffy as to whether the atonement is actually applied to a person until they believe. The only important thing is that it be true that anyone who comes to Christ can come and be welcome by Christ to come, not whether the atonement and the propitiation to God is already done before they come. What right do we have to demand that, or anything, for that matter. We are bid to come. Calvinists believe that. All who do come have their sins removed and paid for and sufficient propitiation is made to God. It's just that Calvinists view propitiation and atonement as the actual pleasing of God and the actual handling of our sin - not as potential things that we demand theologically be fully available to us or else we won't come.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Do I believe God was pleased to bruise Jesus OR do I believe the Lord desired to crush Him, causing Him grief?

Obviously I believe the latter (God's words rather than yours). It pleased God to bruise Him. It was God's will, God's predetermined plan.

You forget that Scripture interprets Scripture. The word חָפֵ֤ץ means "pleased", "delighted", "contented", "willed".

Obviously they were not my words; they were God's.
According to you, not me, the LORD was pleased, delighted, contented to bruise or crush the Lord Jesus, and it was His predetermined plan.

What does the Bible say? Does God take pleasure in such things? No.

He took pleasure in the death of the Lord Jesus. I believe that every Christian should meditate on that fact, and fall down and worship God for it! How God must love us that He would will and give His beloved Son to suffer and die in such an appalling way (John 3:16)!! And how the Lord Jesus must love us to go freely and willingly (Phil. 2:6-8) to suffering and death , not for good people, but for sinners (Romans 5:6)! Of course, the matter was decided before the world was (Eph. 1:4-8; Titus 1:2; Rev. 13:8), but it was done for sinners like us. 'He who did not spare His own Son but offered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also give us all things?' (Romans 8:32). 'The love of Christ that passes knowledge'

But the Bible does say it was God's will and His predetermined plan (which is evident in Isaiah 53:10 by the 2nd part of the verse).

So to get to the point, you agree that it was God's will for the Father to crush the sinless, obedient Son. Yet at the same time you have written:

God has described justice (do not punish the Just, do not clear the guilty).

So I want you to tell us why you think that God is unjust in that it was His will and predetermined plan to bring about the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have a very bad habit of looking through possible definitions to find one that fits your theories rather than the passage, making your philosophy rather than Scripture interpret Scripture.

You have a very bad habit of talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. Answer my question.

But to answer your question - yes, I absolutely agree with Isaiah 53:10. I disagree with your rearranging of words and the philosophy you read into the passage.

You have not answered my question. You agree with Isaiah 53:10, so do you believe that God is unjust? Yes or no. And if not, why not?

 

[Ben1445]

Does God take pleasure in such things?

Does God take pleasure in showing His love to us?
Greater love hath no man than this. But it sounds like you think God hates this sort of thing. You know, the thing that He did for us.

 

[JonC]

Does God take pleasure in showing His love to us?
Greater love hath no man than this. But it sounds like you think God hates this sort of thing. You know, the thing that He did for us.

I believe God takes pleasure in loving us. God is love. I was referring to Ezekiel 33.

Do I believe that God takes pleasure (delight, enjoyment) in the destruction of the wicked? No, I do not. But at the same time it pleases God (His pleasure, or predetermined plan).

I would worry about you if you took pleasure (enjoyment) in disciplining a child. But I would hope you take pleasure in the intended result.

 

[JonC]

Obviously they were not my words; they were God's.
According to you, not me, the LORD was pleased, delighted, contented to bruise or crush the Lord Jesus, and it was His predetermined plan.

Each of those words were God's, but the arrangement was entirely yours.

Do not lie about me @Martin Marprelate . I JUST SAID (in the post you quoted) that God was pleased, contented, it was His will (חָפֵ֤ץ) to crush Him. I said it was God's predetermined plan. It was what God intended, His plan for Christ.

He took pleasure in the death of the Lord Jesus.

But that would be a different god. The God of the Bible does not take pleasure in another's suffering.

Instead it pleased (חָפֵ֤ץ) God to crush Him because this was for our salvation (God set forth His Son as a Propitiation in His blood). He did not spare His own Son.

That is what real Christians meditate on.

But no, the idea that God took pleasure (an emotion) in Jesus suffering rather than it being His will in order that through His death Christ destroys "the power of the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil" is to abandon Christianity all together. These have been carried away from the faith (they no more believe in God than a Muslim praying to Allah).

So to get to the point, you agree that it was God's will for the Father to crush the sinless, obedient Son. Yet at the same time you have written:

No. Again you rewrite Scripture to match your philosophy.

I NEVER agreed that it wss God's will gor the Father to crush the sinless, obedient Son.

I said it was God's will/pleasure/ predetermined plan to crush Him.

The difference between your theory and my view that it pleased the Lord to crush Him is my view does not deny other passages. In Isaiah 53 we see this (Christ's suffeting and death is not described as righteous or just but as oppression judgment).

I believe that Christ's death was real (the power of the one who holds the power of death- that is the devil). I also believe it was the unjust judgment of men who estermed Him as stricken by God (Isaiah 53), that instead of righteous judgment it was "oppression" (Isaiah 53).

Christ died by the actions of the wicked but this was God's predetermined plan. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 attribute Christ's death to forces of evil and wickedness; since Isaiah 53 calls it "oppression".

The fact that it was God's predetermined plan that Jesus die unjustly by wicked powers strengthens the truth that "it is wrong to punish the Just"; that "punishing the Righteous and clearing the guilty are both abominations.

 

[Silverhair]

One of us is, but I think you'll find it's you.

You have been shown the word of God and yet you ignore it.

Christ is not the 'means' of propitiation; He is our propitiation (noun) before God, who set Him forth as such (Romans 3:25). God did not set Him forth as a 'means of propitiation.'

Perhaps this will clear up some of your confusion?

Rom 3:25 whom G3739 God G2316 set forth G4388 (G5639) as a propitiation G2435

G2435​

- Original: ἱλαστήριον

- Transliteration: Hilasterion

relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation Thayer

Christ was sent to make propitiation (verb) for the vast crowd of sinners

Christ was sent by God to be the propitiation for the whole world of sinners or as you call them, the vast crowd of sinners.

I am sure you have seen these before but you still continue to ignore them as they do not fit your philosophy.

Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man
1Jn_2:2 propitiation for the whole world
1Ti_2:5-6 gave Himself a ransom for all
1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers
Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly
Rom_5:8 while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

Calvinism has misunderstood the word of God and missed the truths of God.

You are trying to equate free will and irresistibly being forced to come to God? That is a circle that cannot be squared.

God has used various means to draw all people to Himself, be it creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message. He desires that all come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. [1Ti 2:4] Those that respond in faith are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. [Rom 8:29]

God does not force anyone to trust in Him, there is no irresistible force used as Calvinist’s would have it.

But you are right man must freely choose to trust in Christ Jesus. [Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9]

The verbal form is to 'propitiate' or to 'make propitiation.'

True propitiation is always a noun so Heb 2:17 which uses the verb form should have been translated “propitiate”, which “here means properly to “appease,” to reconcile, to conciliate; and hence, to “propitiate” as to “sins;” that is, to propitiate God in reference to sins, or to render him propitious.” Barnes

But you would not want me to change the words of the bible would you?

So we see in Heb 2:17 that we are told what Christ did, He shed His blood. In the other three verse we see what Christ is, He is the lamb that was sacrificed.

No, you are adding the the word of God. He is the propitiation for our sins, not the means of it.

This should help you out Martin

1Jn 2:2 and He HimselfG846 is the propitiationG2434 for our sinsG266

1Jn 4:10 sentG649 His SonG5207 to be the propitiationG2434 for our sinsG266.

G2434​

- Original: ἱλασμός

- Transliteration: Hilasmos

the means of appeasing, a propitiation



Rom 3:25 whomG3739 GodG2316 displayedG4388 publiclyG4388 as a propitiationG2435 in His bloodG129

G2435​

- Original: ἱλαστήριον

- Transliteration: Hilasterion

relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation

Not adding word Martin just telling you what propitiation means in those verses. I am surprised that you do not know or understand these things.

then God is propitiated (verb) in respect of all the people in the whole world and they are all saved.

Martin why are who is adding to the word of God? Where do you find that propitiation or propitiate means the all the people of the world are saved. You have to read that into the text in the attempt to support your view.

We are only saved by grace through faith. [Eph 2:8] We have been reconciled to God through the death of Christ and we are saved by faith in the risen Christ. [Rom 5:10]

So by your logic only some are under the power of the evil one 1Jn 5:19 but the bible does not agree with you view Martin. Rom 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

The whole world is under the power of the evil one just as Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

John 10:26-28. "But you do not believe because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me, and I give them [i.e. His sheep] eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

So what is you point Martin. We are not His sheep unless we have trusted in Him. As scripture tells us

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?

We hear the gospel message and trust in Him and then we are one of His sheep. That is not hard to understand if you just trust the word of God.

I should have time (DV) to satisfy your curiosity.

Try to stick to the word of God not your Calvinist philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. What I was saying was that which you apparently agree with in that even though God started out as loving us and thus set the plan for our redemption in motion before time began, he still required "propitiation", provided by his Son at a later time and place. So to use the word in a general sense as if God started out "propitious" towards us, should not be done where it gets confused with the actual act of propitiation found in scripture whereby Christ, with his own blood, accomplished this before God - resulting in the making right with God and thus sparing them from God's wrath.

I know what you are thinking and I have no problem with this at a practical level: Christ has died for your sins, God has removed all barriers for you to come to him, a pardon has been declared, and you are bid to come. I express it the same way if someone asks. Theologically though, it's a little iffy as to whether the atonement is actually applied to a person until they believe. The only important thing is that it be true that anyone who comes to Christ can come and be welcome by Christ to come, not whether the atonement and the propitiation to God is already done before they come. What right do we have to demand that, or anything, for that matter. We are bid to come. Calvinists believe that. All who do come have their sins removed and paid for and sufficient propitiation is made to God. It's just that Calvinists view propitiation and atonement as the actual pleasing of God and the actual handling of our sin - not as potential things that we demand theologically be fully available to us or else we won't come.

Even though God from the beginning knew that He would send Christ that did not diminish His love for His creation. [Jn 3:16] That is why Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. So that the world might be saved through Him. [Jn 3:17]

Propitiation does not mean that we are forgiven but that the wrath of an offended one, God, has been turned away.

Yes Christ is the propitiation, [noun] the only means by which the wrath of God can be propitiated [verb]. If Christ had not gone to the cross then no one would have been propitiated. Just as the gift of salvation is there for all but if you do not accept that gift then you are still lost.

Why would you think that it is iffy as to whether the atonement is actually applied to a person until they believe. The bible is crystal clear on that.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

The atonement does not save anyone but it makes salvation possible for everyone.

I do understand what the Calvinist's view is re. propitiation and atonement but that is not what the bible says. Calvinism has misused and misunderstood the word of God and this has lead to errors being introduced into the church.

Some are comfortable with trusting a man made view but I would rather go with the biblical view.

 

[JonC]

The issue with Calvinism is that it is at heart a secular philosophy that extracts bits of Scripture to use in order to make it "Christian".

"World" in 1 John 2:2 cannot mean "world" as used the other 4 times in 1 John 2 because while it does not contradict Calvinism (John Calvin wrote "world" excluded no human being) it would not demand Calvinism.

"Propitiation" cannot be a noun because while it may not completely contradict Calvinism it does not carry the same support as "propitiated for the elect".

What we need to do is start with God's Word and be careful not to leave His words. The biblical text IS the doctrine we need to hold.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I promised @Silverhair that I would set out my understanding of 1 John 2:1-2, so here goes:
'My Little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world.' [NKJV]

The first thing to note is that there is nothing 'iffy' about verse 1. Christians sin, as John himself has made clear in 1:8-10. They are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and have, as far as their redeemed nature is concerned, died to sin (Romans 6:1). But there remains in our mortal bodies a relic of the old nature, which we are to mortify, but with which we shall struggle all our earthly lives (Romans 6:11-14 etc.). So if (or rather, when) we sin, the Lord Jesus is our advocate before the Father. Do we suppose that we could argue our own defence? Surely not!
But what does the Lord Jesus say to the Father on our behalf? Does He say, "Father, these people are innocent"? That would be untrue. Does He say, "There are extenuating circumstances"? Does He plead for leniency because of ignorance? No. These things would also be untrue; we have a conscience. But maybe He says "Oh, he isn't such a bad chap. He loves his mother, and has a standing order to his church." That doesn't work either. James 2:10 applies.
He does none of these things. He is the propitiation for our sins. He has paid the penalty on behalf of His people. Divine justice is satisfied (Romans 8:1). He stands before the Father and shows His pierced hands and feet, and His wounded side and declares in effect, "Father, there is no case for these people to answer. Their sins are already paid for in full. I have borne their sin and the curse attached to them in My own body on the tree. You can be just and justify these people because they have trusted in Me for their salvation and are united to Me by faith."

So how about Christ as propitiation for the whole world? Well, if one takes the view, as most of the commentaries do, that 'world' here refers to people, then by the words 'whole world' John is saying that the sacrifice that Christ made was not only for certain Jews, nor for a small group of first-century believers, , but for people of every tribe and tongue and nation (Rev. 7:9) throughout history. I won't repeat the argument that I have made several times on this thread that if by 'whole world,' John means 'every single person who ever lived,' then every single person has been propitiated in respect of the Father and Christ intercedes for every single person who ever lived. 'All' does not always, or even usually, mean 'every single one (e.g. 1 Tim. 6:10).

But there is another interpretation which I rather favour. We know that because of our first parents' sin, the world lies under a curse (Gen. 3:17-19; 5:29). It is God's righteous judgment that sinful people are not going to live on a perfect earth. The world is not as it was when God made it and pronounced it 'very good.' It is fallen along with mankind, and so it is that for every beautiful flower we see, there is a horrid stinging nettle, for every lovely butterfly there is a nasty mosquito or stinging wasp, and death is universally prevalent.
Paul takes up this theme in Romans 8:18-23. 'For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope' because the creation itself will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labours with birth pangs together until now.....' The mention of 'birth pangs' ties in with Matthew 24:7-8. It is a long time since I was in a maternity ward, but I recall that there were cries of pain and doctors and nurses running to and fro. One might have supposed that something was dying; but on the contrary, something is coming to birth. On the cross our Lord redeemed not just His people, but His whole kosmos, His world, even His universe. And that is why we read in Rev. 22:3, 'And there shall be no more curse.'
Now although this is something that was achieved on the cross, we shall not experience its effects until the end of time. There is an 'already, but not yet' aspect to eternity. Paul tells us that we are already seated in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6), but here we are, still on the fallen earth. The Lord Jesus tells us more than once that believers will never die (Mark 12:27; John 8:51; 11:26; 2 Tim. 1:10), but we know that, unless the Lord comes first, we shall indeed shuffle off this mortal coil. These things are so certain in the mind of God that they are spoken of as being present realities.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The issue with Calvinism is that it is at heart a secular philosophy that extracts bits of Scripture to use in order to make it "Christian".

"World" in 1 John 2:2 cannot mean "world" as used the other 4 times in 1 John 2 because while it does not contradict Calvinism (John Calvin wrote "world" excluded no human being) it would not demand Calvinism.

None of the six other usages of kosmos in 1 John 2 means 'people.'
1 John 2:15-17. 'Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in Him. For all that is in the world - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - is not from the Father, but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.'
The use of kosmos in these verses rather clearly does not refer to human beings. It refers to the world as it lies under Satan, as in Bunyan's Vanity Fair.

"Propitiation" cannot be a noun because while it may not completely contradict Calvinism it does not carry the same support as "propitiated for the elect".

I have repeatedly said that 'propitiation is a noun. It really would help if you read my posts before replying to them.

What we need to do is start with God's Word and be careful not to leave His words. The biblical text IS the doctrine we need to hold.

Amen!

 

[JonC]

I won't repeat the argument that I have made several times on this thread that if by 'whole world,' John means 'every single person who ever lived,' then every single person has been propitiated in respect of the Father and Christ intercedes for every single person who ever lived.

This is a mistake. "Propitiation" is a noun. Nobody's sins were propitiated on the Cross (God set forth His Son AS A Propitiation through His blood to be recieved by faith).

If I have the only cure for all human cancer which must be given as an injection this does not mean that everybody is cured from cancer. Only those who recieve the cure are cured. But this does not change the nature of the cure itself.

Christ is the Propitiation for all sin. There is no other. He is the Way. There is no other way.

But to say one's sins are propitiated the Propitiation must be received by faith.