Would you lie to Nazis about Jews hiding in your house?

[Ben1445]

Would you hide Bernie Madoff from the FBI just because he is a Jew?

Well, if the FBI becomes obsessed with hunting people down based on their ethnicity, it doesn’t matter much to me what they have done. I am not one to hand someone over to corruption just because I don’t like something else about them.
But to answer your question straight, if I knew where he was, and I had no reason to doubt law enforcement, I would turn him in regardless of his nationality which makes you quite uncomfortable.

You are always worried they are getting some preference or better treatment.

Your example is not remotely comparable to the original question.

I don’t know anyone who gives out get out of jail free cards to people because they are Jewish, which seem to be what you are insinuating. If you weren’t so obsessed with Jews not having been completely destroyed in AD 70, you might have time to realize that we all bleed and need bandages if we are bleeding badly enough.

There is no difference, so why are you so concerned with the difference?

The same question could have been asked about a situation in the civil war, Cold War Soviet Union, maybe even present day, present day China, Nigeria… and the list could go on.

The question comes from a historical event. It is not people drumming up support for Israel who have a fat salary from Mossad for garnering support online. So you may now remove your foil hat. If you can’t find a reason to, find your own flag for a moment to give your mind a break.

Some people just like people, and they don’t care what their ethnicity is.

 

[Mike B]

For non-Jews also? Or only for Jews?

Been pondering on this question.

In truth, the time for thinking through the philosophical question should come before ever
hiding the people in the basement.

The Jews were an unjustly persecuted people, and deserving of whatever protection others
could provide. I would hope to believe that the Jews would do the same for Christians, if that
were the case.

And yes, I'd have let Bernie Madoff in my basement, and then put a neon sign out front pointing
the way for the FBI.

 

[Mr. Lunt]

Often Police will outright lie to a suspect.
OR at a minimum - will be deceptive.

How many of these LEO's are Christians?

I think that this is a more relevant scenario because with the Nazi and hiding Jews situation people say different things to dodge the question. (Some people say use misdirection, or I would have spoken out against it before it reached that point)

The law enforcement scenario is very common. They will say to the criminal “We have evidence and you need to confess. It will be better for you if you confess now.” Even though the evidence does not exist.

Countless criminals have been put away because of this. And countless people have been put out of harm’s way as a result.

So should detectives stop lying and let the criminals walk free to harm again? That is no hypothetical bind it happens on the regular.

 

[Salty]

How about this situation?
I did see this on a TV cop show - but it would not surprise me if it was based on actual fact.

Detectives arrest two men involved in a crime. Det A takes Suspect A to one room. Det B takes Suspect B to another room. Both are told whoever talks first will get a better deal. Suspect B is taken down the hallway - and passes a window where he can see suspect A talking to a detective who is writing down the info. Therefore Suspect B starts talking to get the better deal? -- However - Det A had only asked the suspect if he was hungry - and was writing down what the man would like to order.
Was this ethical? Were the detectives lying to get a confession.

 

[Foxmeister]

Would you hide Bernie Madoff from the FBI just because he is a Jew?

That question has nothing to do with the other. In the first, the Nazis are hunting Jews to take them to concentration camps where they will most likely be exterminated. In your question, you're asking him if he would hide someone who is wanted by the law for a murder because they are a Jew.

 

[Foxmeister]

How about this situation?
I did see this on a TV cop show - but it would not surprise me if it was based on actual fact.

Detectives arrest two men involved in a crime. Det A takes Suspect A to one room. Det B takes Suspect B to another room. Both are told whoever talks first will get a better deal. Suspect B is taken down the hallway - and passes a window where he can see suspect A talking to a detective who is writing down the info. Therefore Suspect B starts talking to get the better deal? -- However - Det A had only asked the suspect if he was hungry - and was writing down what the man would like to order.
Was this ethical? Were the detectives lying to get a confession.

In law enforcement that is ethical. In fact there is nothing illegal about lying to a suspect to get a confession. Years ago, I asked my pastor if it were a sin for a Christian LEO to work undercover where you would have to lie. He told me it was not, because I was deceiving people who were breaking the law to bring them to justice.

 

[John of Japan]

How can misdirection not be lying?

I believe there can be a hierarchy of ethics. One ethical consideration can over-ride another ethical consideration.

Lying is generally wrong. But cooperating with genocidal murderers is worse. So lying to them is better than telling them the truth.

Stealing is generally wrong. But if I steal a murderer’s gun to prevent him from killing someone, that is good.

Misdirection involves the other side misunderstanding what I say, not me speaking something that is not true. If misdirection is lying, then God commended lying at the battle of Ai.

 

[John of Japan]

Can you be more specific - maybe give an example?

The first battle of AI.

David employed misdirection by pretending to the Philistines that he was crazy. They bought it, but he had not lied, just misdirected.

Or, the Nazis come to my door and say, "Where is the Jew?" I answer, "Give me a break. How would I know?" I have not lied, but hopefully they will be misdirected and go elsewhere.

 

[Salty]

Or, the Nazis come to my door and say, "Where is the Jew?" I answer, "Give me a break. How would I know?" I have not lied, but hopefully they will be misdirected and go elsewhere.

Mr. Webster states: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive"

 

[canadyjd]

I would say, “I am sorry, I don’t understand German”

Peace to you

 

[Salty]

I would say, “I am sorry, I don’t understand German”

Peace to you

There is no doubt in my military mind that many of the SS were at least bilingual !

 

[John of Japan]

Mr. Webster states: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive"

And Webster says about misdirection: "the act or an instance of misdirecting or diverting" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misdirection). So misdirection may or may not have words involved. If there are no words ("an untrue statement" as your definition says), then it cannot be a lie. (Never mind "Lyin' Eyes" by the Eagles. )

 

[John of Japan]

In any martial art, misdirection is very important. We call it "a feint." So in Judo, I make fake a hip throw and go from there to Osostogari, the outer reaping throw. A boxer of MMA fighter may jab with his left to draw the block, then hook with his right for the KO. A wrestler may shoot in for a double leg takedown, then shift it to a single leg takedown. A karate fighter or kickboxer may fake a low front kick and then shift to a high roundhouse kick for the KO.

I've never heard of anyone in any of these fighting arts refer to any technique as "lying." It just isn't. Actions cannot be lies, because there are no "statements" as such. Actions can be deceitful, but that does not make them lies. "Lie" and "deceit" are not synonyms, though they are in the same semantic domain.

Even when words are used, the actual statement must be false with the intent to deceive. Many examples could be given of verbal misdirection when there is no untrue statement, such as with my example above.

 

[kyredneck]

Been pondering on this question.

Lol, that was my intent.

 

[kyredneck]

You are always worried they are getting some preference or better treatment.

...probably because Judaizers were the very first threat to the Church, and we're warned to beware of them, and I hate to see my CHRISTIAN brothers getting DECIEVED.

 

[JonC]

In any martial art, misdirection is very important. We call it "a feint." So in Judo, I make fake a hip throw and go from there to Osostogari, the outer reaping throw.

I knew there had to be something wrong with Judo.

You could make an honest version. Shout "I'm going for the outter reaping throw!!". Your opponent will be taken off guard, probably won't believe you, and you land it while he is looking for a hip throw.

 

[Mike B]

It just amazes me how the Lord so often brings answers to our questions...we just have to be listening.

Watching an old show about Joshua, and how he sent two men ahead to scout out the
city of Jericho. They were hiding at the house of Rahab...

..........................................................................................

Joshua Chapter 3

1 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there.

2 And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, Behold, there came men in hither to night of the children of Israel to search out the country.

3 And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country.

4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:

5 And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: whither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them.

6 But she had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof.

7 And the men pursued after them the way to Jordan unto the fords: and as soon as they which pursued after them were gone out, they shut the gate.

......................................................................................

Rahab was greatly blessed by God for her efforts to protect the men she was hiding. Whether they were the King of Jericho's men,
or Nazi's..............I believe we have an answer to the question.



.

 

[Ben1445]

...probably because Judaizers were the very first threat to the Church, and we're warned to beware of them, and I hate to see my CHRISTIAN brothers getting DECIEVED.

There is a difference between political and religious issues with Israel. I don’t know of anyone who is converting from Christ, back into the law. And politics has little to do with Christianity.

 

[Ascetic X]

It just amazes me how the Lord so often brings answers to our questions...we just have to be listening.

Rahab was greatly blessed by God for her efforts to protect the men she was hiding. Whether they were the King of Jericho's men,
or Nazi's..............I believe we have an answer to the question.

I had already mentioned that my pastor said that Rahab’s pagan gods were okay with lying in certain circumstances, but our God is never okay with lying.

 

[Mike B]

I had already mentioned that my pastor said that Rahab’s pagan gods were okay with lying in certain circumstances, but our God is never okay with lying.

You are absolutely correct...you did mention it in the first post, and somehow I focused on the
question rather than your comment and either missed it when I read back through the thread,
or it just didn't register. Either way, my apologies for an unnecessary post.