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Have You Ever Attended...
- Thread starter Novelist
- Start date
Was raised Catholic, and attended 11 years of Catholic schools, including an all-male
Catholic high school.
While I did receive a good education that has carried me though life, as far as the
Catholic Mass and church go.....the best term I could use is "Made Up". I don't see the
Catholic church as being about salvation; they are more concerned with maintaining
power and control over the membership. All their pageantry, pomp and circumstance
doesn't amount to diddly, in my book, as it's all for appearance sake.
In my Freshman year (9th grade) I asked the religious studies teacher (Fr. Motzko) why we didn't
use a Bible as part of class. He said learning from the traditions and early church fathers was more
important. Told him I wanted to get a Bible, and asked what version he would suggest. His answer
surprised me, as he said "Anything but the King James Version".
The service (aka: Mass) is repetitive...aside from the pastors homily, it's a "cookie cutter" kind
of service, with plenty of repetitious prayers. Seen one, you've pretty much seen 'em all. Haven't
been to a Catholic mass since 1977, but my older brother recently attended one and he said it
hasn't changed a bit...same old re-run.
Catholic high school.
While I did receive a good education that has carried me though life, as far as the
Catholic Mass and church go.....the best term I could use is "Made Up". I don't see the
Catholic church as being about salvation; they are more concerned with maintaining
power and control over the membership. All their pageantry, pomp and circumstance
doesn't amount to diddly, in my book, as it's all for appearance sake.
In my Freshman year (9th grade) I asked the religious studies teacher (Fr. Motzko) why we didn't
use a Bible as part of class. He said learning from the traditions and early church fathers was more
important. Told him I wanted to get a Bible, and asked what version he would suggest. His answer
surprised me, as he said "Anything but the King James Version".
The service (aka: Mass) is repetitive...aside from the pastors homily, it's a "cookie cutter" kind
of service, with plenty of repetitious prayers. Seen one, you've pretty much seen 'em all. Haven't
been to a Catholic mass since 1977, but my older brother recently attended one and he said it
hasn't changed a bit...same old re-run.
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Yes, my wife's mother was a practicing Catholic, and so I recall attending more than one service. I was not a fan of all the ritual, but was impressed with the level of commitment exhibited by many of those attending. I believe the Catholic church is riddled with false doctrine, but also believe God has accepted the faith, commitment and love of many a Catholic and saved them. We all probably hold errant views, hopefully not as many as the Catholics, but we were equally dependent on God's grace, rather than on the accuracy of our faith for His salvation.
Thank you for your kind words. I converted from being Baptist to the Catholic Faith. I attend mass daily. I also pray the Daily Office which is contemplative prayer and reading of scripture that we are encouraged to read, mark and inwardly digest in order to better follow and serve Jesus.
I understand that there are many cultural Catholics that are biblically illiterate. Some is lack of desire on their part and some are due to failure on the part of those teaching the faith as a previous poster pointed out.
The first half of any mass is The Liturgy of the word of God. Much of the readings of scripture uses ancient chant. Chants slow the readings down and provides me a better opportunity to inwardly digest the portions of Holy Scriptures appointed.
As far as the 'same old, same old' their are many congregational responses that remain the same but the Liturgy of the word changes every day. Our wonderful priest has a short homily (sermon) providing his take one day's appointed Scriptures.
I am sorry to hear that Catholic Church one poster mentions seems to be aging out. Most parishes here in the West are full with standing room only at each of four masses on Sunday. However, most of the Baptist churches in my area are just barely hanging on. Some have several services but that is to accommodate a handful of traditionalist at an early service followed by contemporary service with a small 'praise band' which is also leaving mostly empty pews. The music tends to be Very repetitive, but it it is from the heart I will never judge it as 'vain (useless) repetitive attempts to provide praise to our Lord.
I also want to say is what matters is whether a person has the right relationship with Jesus. I grew up ina 'Hyles like' Baotist church that the pastor used a few verses of scripture in his sermon each Sunday followed by an Altar Call where you prayed 'this little prayer' and bingo. You were saved. No talk of repenting. Just 'Easy Believism'. I know not all Baptist churches are the same, just as not all Catholic Churches are providing the best liturgy and they are capable of much better.
The Catholic Church here has grown very fast since we arrived here. The Catholic Church in the city I just moved from (Visalia ca) just finished building the largest Catholic Church in the USA, because the other two Catholic Churches in town had overflow crowds at each mass. The new church fills the pew each Sunday and has many bible study opportunities each week.
All I can say is that I believe I believe
I am much closer to Jesus since my journey brought me to the Catholic Church.
As I have stated, there's many cultural Catholics that couldn't tell you who wrote the four gospels. Hopefully, they will find encounter with the risen Christ at some point and realize how much they need to follow in His footstep and carry the message to others.
The Catholic Church here has grown very fast since we arrived here. The Catholic Church in the city I just moved from (Visalia ca) just finished building the largest Catholic Church in the USA, because the other two Catholic Churches in town had overflow crowds at each mass. The new church fills the pew each Sunday and has many bible study opportunities each week.
All I can say is that I believe I believe
I am much closer to Jesus since my journey brought me to the Catholic Church.
As I have stated, there's many cultural Catholics that couldn't tell you who wrote the four gospels. Hopefully, they will find encounter with the risen Christ at some point and realize how much they need to follow in His footstep and carry the message to others.
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I have gone with a friend to several Catholic church services. For me, they were brutal to sit through. I was the only one in the whole church who brought a Bible. I found that very strange. I would read along with the scripture that was being read. All the bowing toward the altar and flexing (or whatever they call it) and the priest kissing the table was a little hard for this old Baptist boy to take. A lot of what they were doing looked like idolatry to me. I just sit there and be quiet. I don't take part in any of the proceedings, except to stand occasionally when everyone else stands. If you don't take the Bible as the sole word of God, I guess you can do anything you want. No plan of salvation. No altar call. No call to repent. Claiming tradition is just as important or more important than the Bible to me is ridiculous. One may have a tradition of robbing a bank on the last day of every month, but that doesn't mean it is right. I don't understand calling the priest Father when Jesus said to call no man father in Matthew 23:9. I don't get confession either. Why confess to a man when you can confess directly to God? And saying Hail Mary and reciting the Lord's Prayer over and over is works and not faith and it is also vain repetitions. I could go on and on but I will stop there. I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm just telling my take on it.
Joe
Joe
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I have Catholic family from dads side who were from Saginaw Michigan who attended the, "Cathedral of Mary of the Assumption" church. I can remember as a young person thinking, wow! This is like something out of a JRR Tolkien book! To climb those stairs into the main sanctuary was quite the experience!
We have the Scripture readings in those books you weren't noticing everyone using. Did you notice the huge amount of Scriptures being read? Did you notice that the corporate confession (repentance) is at the beginning of every mass? There is an Altar Call at every mass as we receive Holy Communion. No we don't have a time when the pastor asks 'now with every head bowed and every eye closed, if there are those . . . .' Having people 'come forward' to pray 'this little prayer' which many times in Baptist churches does not involve repentance but amounts to 'easy believism'.
You have no idea what is happening at mass and your accusation of idolatry comes out of not understanding why people bowed or genuflected. It's OK, I know who and what I worship. If Baptist pastor is kneeling in church in front of a chair with a Bible laying on it, which is he or in some Baptist churches 'she' worshiping? The chair or the Bible? See how appearances might be confusing?
I know, I was Baptist where every one was encouraged to tote a Bible around at church. Ours are sitting in the pews included in the liturgy. BTW, I find many Baptist services are brutal. Worship songs whish are ETREMELY repetitive, 'You Are A Good, Good Father, That's Who You Are' is just one example. You know 15 or twenty minutes of praise songs that primarily the 'Praise Team' sing with little participation by the congregation and then followed by about an hour of a 3 point sermon that has me asleep after the first twenty minutes.
You see, we have different views on what best feeds our souls and what a worship service should look like. I am not trying to tell you or anyone here they are not worshipping God in their evangelical churches. I am saying I am a Catholic Christian that finds my daily walk with Jesus is best nurtured by attending daily mass and praying the Daily Office where I am fed with the word of God and united in prayer by millions of other Catholic Christians praying the same Offices with me.
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A prominent Southern Baptist pastor admits that when traveling he goes to Roman Catholic churches because he's sure to hear the Bible read:
Mark Dever: Gospel theology must shape Sunday worship services
"The Baptist pastor also underscored the importance of publicly reading Scripture aloud, noting that many evangelical churches do not spend time doing that anymore. When he goes on vacation he says he has to go to a Roman Catholic church for a reliable place to find that, he said."
Mark Dever: Gospel theology must shape Sunday worship services
"The Baptist pastor also underscored the importance of publicly reading Scripture aloud, noting that many evangelical churches do not spend time doing that anymore. When he goes on vacation he says he has to go to a Roman Catholic church for a reliable place to find that, he said."
Armchair Apologist
Active Member
I was raised in Roman Catholicism and became a Baptist about a year and a half or so (1983) afterward after coming to a living, saving faith in the risen Christ (1981).
I therefore have familiarity from such a standpoint but since I have been a Baptist (Evangelical Christian) for over 40 years, I am now on the outside observing Roman Catholicism mainly from this Evangelical (Baptist) perspective although I am able to better discern (from both sides) when one or the other is misrepresented due to either willful or unintentional ignorance.
I have attended several Catholic funerals and a couple of Catholic weddings but these are pretty much the only times in which I will attend a Roman Catholic service.
I therefore have familiarity from such a standpoint but since I have been a Baptist (Evangelical Christian) for over 40 years, I am now on the outside observing Roman Catholicism mainly from this Evangelical (Baptist) perspective although I am able to better discern (from both sides) when one or the other is misrepresented due to either willful or unintentional ignorance.
I have attended several Catholic funerals and a couple of Catholic weddings but these are pretty much the only times in which I will attend a Roman Catholic service.
I would say that this Baptist pastor has a definite problem maybe with his hearing. I have heard lots of scripture read in every Baptist service I have ever been in. He needs to be careful as some of the "scripture" he is hearing being read may be from one of those books that are NOT in the Bible. There are only 66 books in the Bible, not 73.
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Armchair Apologist
Active Member
I have been a big fan of the "9-Marks" ministries and have used their material in the training of deacons and ministry leaders at our church but Mark Dever has some serious issues and I do not believe I could recommend this ministry any longer!
Mark Dever is willfully ignorant at best and intentionally deceitful truth be known! If you go to the Churches in his 9-Marks directory (as I often have), you will find a plentiful assortment of churches that place a high view of public scripture reading and expository preaching!
I cannot think of a single instance in which a Roman Catholic priest has ever opened up the scriptures and preached them expositorily (verse-by-verse). A Roman Catholic service typically has three "readings" (Old Testament, New Testament, and the "Gospels") based upon where they are in the "Liturgical Year" and the Priest's Homily (sermon) often has nothing to do with any of these readings. The main focus of a Roman Catholic service is the Mass which is why the "Altar" is in a position of prominence and the pulpit (lectern) is off to the side.
If he wants to speak against the typical Mega-Church "Worship" service with the rocking praise band, laser light shows, and the "Ted Talk" messsages, then he has a point but he is deliberately ignoring all of the churches who are doing everything right and of whom he supposedly "championed" once upon a time!
Receiving Holy Communion or eating a vanilla wafer given by a priest or sometimes even a lay person is NOT an altar call. Just walking toward the altar is NOT an altar call. With every Baptist altar call I have seen, and I have experienced many, there has always been a call to repentance. This "little prayer" as you call it may not seem like much to you but this little prayer is more than adequate for one's salvation. And this salvation is permanent. Once you are saved you are saved and you can't get unsaved.
Joe
Armchair Apologist
Active Member
OK, this is where I have to come down on the "Other Side" here!
The so-called "Altar Call" is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is largely a construct of the "Revivalism" of the Second Great Awakening. I am not saying it is unscriptural or that it should never be employed but I am saying that it has been been misused in order to bring about an emotionally driven response that may or may not have any actual spiritual implications (regeneration, true repentance, etc.).
The main purpose of a so-called "Altar Call" is to drive home a specific application of the message that has been delivered and there are many different ways in which such can be done (aside from walking the aisle) which includes challenging the congregation right where they are sitting (or standing) to "examine themselves," to be more diligent in "loving their neighbor" and being a better husband and father and so forth. I have seen Catholic priests do just this quite often.
I know you are speaking of the "Altar Call" as an invitation to "Trust Christ" but once again, you do not need to "walk an aisle" in order to do so. If the gospel message is plainly preached, the Holy Spirit will perform His work right where they are. A pastor may also instruct those concerned with their salvation to come and see him or one of the other pastors, elders, or deacons after the service. Catholics and Baptists have some fundamental differences in their understanding of the gospel but this is besides the point.
Now you are correct in that our salvation is "permanent" but most Catholics would say the same thing as well but the scriptures are quite clear that you must CONTINUE (perservere) in this salvation meaning that you are walking in a NEW LIFE and that Christ is working in you both to will and do of his good pleasure! Our salvation is not some one-time Ron Popei "Set it and Forget it" prayer that we prayed once upon a time to "ask Jesus into our hearts" and I can appreciate the contempt that many Catholics have towards such a notion! A genuine conversion brings about repentance and faith where one becomes a "New Creature" with a "New Life" and a "New Song" of which many shall see and fear and shall trust in the Lord! And yes, a genuine believer is genuinely and eternally secure in this salvation!
I guess I had better address this and my apologies for the long-windedness but the primary difference between Roman Catholics and Baptists (and other Evangelical Christians) is in their view of justification and mainly how sanctification works with this. A Catholic would likely cite James in order to remind a Protestant that "Faith without works is dead" and they would be right. However, they are wrong in their application of this passage by insisting that a believer must "work" in order to justify (prove) their faith. This is the entire jist of the Reformation whereby Martin Luther declared "The Just shall live by Faith!"
The Roman Catholic view of Faith and Works is as follows: Faith + Works = Justification
The Biblical view of Faith and Works is: Faith = Justification + Works (Eph 2:8-10)
Meaning that we are justified by faith alone but our faith is never alone!
Hopefull this is helpful and not just argumentative!
Foxmeister
Active Member
I was once married to a Catholic. I remember before we were married we had to be interviewed by a priest as part of some marriage classes. I was asked if my children would be raised Catholic. I said no. He said we couldn't be married in the Catholic church. I asked him what was more important: my children be raised Catholic or raised to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. He looked at me. Then I said the latter is the only way to keep from going to Hell. He married us.