I Will Build My Church

[Anthony Pritchard]

Psalm 118 as well as all the psalms is a prophecy.

Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases;
18 And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed.
19 And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.



46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. (see Eph 2:19-22)
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

One should read this whole chapter because the instructions he is giving these men he has chosen reflects the spirit and attitude that he has ministered with. This is very near the end of his earthly ministry and he will be leaving shortly to go to the Father to receive for himself a kingdom. But he is leaving stewards to care for his possessions while he is away. He is giving them the very kingdom powers that he has ministered with so they can do all the miracles that he has done. Jesus according to several passages in the scriptures ministered from his conception with the power of the Holy Ghost. Late on resurrection day Jesus met with these men and breathed the Holy Spirit into 10 of them (John 20) and the authority to bind and loose even to the raising of the dead. The Spirit would be in full control of their work as he had been the power of Jesus during his incarnation.

There is much I can say about this but I want to bring your attention with the remainder of this post to a parable of Jesus on the day he came to Jerusalem a week before his crucifixion. This is important. Notice the ten's in this parable which is also a prophecy.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they (his disciples which included the apostles) thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman (Jesus) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
(See Acts 1-7 here)
14 But his citizens Judah) hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Lk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, [thou] wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give [it] to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Jesus here is giving what he knows will be their response to these apostles, not what he sovereignly predetermined for them. Every man will give an account for his own actions and those actions will be the tell tale evidence for others to see. His divisions of the ages are set in eternity and will take place on time .In this age justification is believing that Jesus Christ is the virgin born son of God and his death, burial, and resurrection saves us from the penalty of our sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire and gives us hope of our own resurrection and glorification. The eye witness testimony of the apostles and the 70 elders that Jesus chose in Luke 10 and what they wrote and God preserved for 2000 years in his Bible is the foundation of our faith. In this way they are the foundation of the church and these men could not have written a word about the gospel of salvation before the events of the cross because not a one them believed when they heard that Jesus had risen from the dead. Before the cross they believed what at their time brought justification and that is clearly presented in John 20:30-31 as being that "Jesus is the Christ the son of God and that believing they will have life through his name."

I am on solid ground here and the apostles link the gentile church to the kingdom of God.

JD, none of the passages you quoted address the point I made. Psalm 118:22 identifies the Messiah as the cornerstone, and Jesus Himself applies that text directly to His own person during His earthly ministry in Matthew 21:42. Peter applies the same text to Christ again in Acts 4:11 after the resurrection. The cornerstone is Christ Himself in prophecy, in His ministry, and in His exaltation. That is the point under discussion.

Your appeal to Luke 6, Luke 19, and the parable of the pounds does not interact with the cornerstone texts or with the timing Christ gives for the beginning of His building work. Luke 6:13 records the moment He constituted the apostles: “He chose twelve, whom also He named apostles.” Ephesians 2:20 identifies these men as the foundation stones of the assembly Christ promised to build. The laying of the foundation is the beginning of the building. Pentecost is the empowering of the assembly, not the beginning of its formation.

Psalm 118 does not present Israel collectively as the cornerstone. Jesus applies the psalm to Himself, not to the nation, and He does so before His death. Peter applies it to Christ again after His resurrection. The Scriptural sequence is straightforward: Christ is the cornerstone, the apostles are the foundation, and the building work begins when He lays those foundation stones in Luke 6.

 

[percho]

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:51,53

Is the above inclusive of those baptized into, "the church"? Is it inclusive of say, Simon Barjona?

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
----------------- “O Death, where is your sting?[fn]
----------------- "O Hades, where is your victory?”[fn


Does that saying that is written sound a lot like, " the gates of Hades shall not prevail of her"?

When is then? When will be brought to pass that saying?

1 Cor 15:52 NKJV in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many future tense verbs are in that verse? Future?

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:51,53

Is the above inclusive of those baptized into, "the church"? Is it inclusive of say, Simon Barjona?

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
----------------- “O Death, where is your sting?[fn]
----------------- "O Hades, where is your victory?”[fn


Does that saying that is written sound a lot like, " the gates of Hades shall not prevail of her"?

When is then? When will be brought to pass that saying?

1 Cor 15:52 NKJV in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many future tense verbs are in that verse? Future?

You are combining three different subjects that Scripture treats separately.
1. 1 Corinthians 15 is about resurrection, not about the church.
Paul is describing the future transformation of believers:
“this corruptible must put on incorruption” and “this mortal must put on immortality.”
That includes all believers, including Simon Bar‑Jona, but it is not defining the church or its timing. It is explaining the resurrection of the body.

2. Matthew 16:18 is not about resurrection; it is about Christ’s building.
Jesus says, “I will build my church,” and He speaks of the gates of Hades not prevailing against it.
That is not a resurrection text.
It is Christ’s promise concerning His assembly, the people He calls and constitutes.

3. “The gates of Hades” in Matthew 16 is not the same as “O Hades, where is thy victory?” in 1 Corinthians 15.
Paul is quoting a resurrection prophecy fulfilled at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52).
Jesus is speaking of His church in the present age.
Different contexts, different verbs, different doctrines.

4. The future tense in 1 Corinthians 15 does not change the meaning of Matthew 16.
Paul is describing what happens “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.”
Jesus is describing what He Himself will do in calling, naming, and constituting His assembly.

These are not parallel passages.
They are not describing the same event.
They are not addressing the same doctrine.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
----------------- “O Death, where is your sting?[fn]
----------------- "O Hades, where is your victory?”[fn

The translators, likely the finest team of linguists ever assembled, rendered the term as “grave” in English. That alone shows that Matthew 16:18 is not speaking about resurrection language. The passage is not addressing the last trumpet, nor the transformation of the mortal body, nor the swallowing up of death in victory. It is Christ’s promise concerning His assembly, not Paul’s resurrection teaching in 1 Corinthians 15.

When Scripture speaks of resurrection, it uses resurrection terms. When it speaks of the grave, it uses grave terms. When it speaks of Christ building His church, it uses building terms. These passages are not interchangeable, and they are not describing the same doctrine.

 

[JD731]

JD, none of the passages you quoted address the point I made. Psalm 118:22 identifies the Messiah as the cornerstone, and Jesus Himself applies that text directly to His own person during His earthly ministry in Matthew 21:42. Peter applies the same text to Christ again in Acts 4:11 after the resurrection. The cornerstone is Christ Himself in prophecy, in His ministry, and in His exaltation. That is the point under discussion.

Jn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Anthony, Your argument makes no sense. It is illogical. It is unreasonable. The OT does not prophesy an assembly, it predicts a kingdom. The gospel accounts are about the kingdom of God, which in Luke 6 `had not been rejected as yet by the builders. He is choosing officers of the kingdom. Twelve apostles and seventy elders. He is not choosing members of the church.

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The gospels records the time of the harvest.
Luke 10:2
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

It is in the end of the old age, not the beginning of the new.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

He 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days (of one of these ages (aions) spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Aions)

He 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (aion) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is (present tense) the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Your appeal to Luke 6, Luke 19, and the parable of the pounds does not interact with the cornerstone texts or with the timing Christ gives for the beginning of His building work. Luke 6:13 records the moment He constituted the apostles: “He chose twelve, whom also He named apostles.” Ephesians 2:20 identifies these men as the foundation stones of the assembly Christ promised to build. The laying of the foundation is the beginning of the building. Pentecost is the empowering of the assembly, not the beginning of its formation.

These powers these apostles had are kingdom powers and there has never been a man perform a miracle outside the kingdom context. When Israel lost her national identity in 70 AD and was dispersed into the nations, one should think "graveyard and national burial" and men have performed no miracles since.

Psalm 118 does not present Israel collectively as the cornerstone. Peter applies it to Christ again after His resurrection. The Scriptural sequence is straightforward: Christ is the cornerstone, the apostles are the foundation, and the building work begins when He lays those foundation stones in Luke 6.

I sure did not apply the nation Israel to the cornerstone context. This is a prophecy and a prophecy must have a demonstrable fulfillment or it is proven to be a false prophecy according to the scriptures themselves.. Jesus Christ fulfilled this prophecy by his burial and resurrection when he actually became the cornerstone.. If the gospel work of Jesus Christ was the fullness of time, then the resurrection was the beginning of the new age with the birth of the firstborn from the dead. That is what we are told.

WE believe Jesus was a prophet during the days of his earthly ministry. We are told he was. Here.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

I am springing forward for my last point in this post. Jesus gave this prophetic parable on Wednesday of the crucifixion week in the temple at Jerusalem. He would be crucified on Friday. This prophecy begins during the first 7 years after Jesus was killed, buried, and rose again and only those of Jerusalem and Judaea were preached to. Everything was ready for the wedding to take place and he sent heralds to those who were bidden. That would be the Jews. It was his perfect will for them to come and be the bride but they refused and the offer to them ended at the end of Acts 7.


Mt 23:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
V7 is a reference to Titus the Roman and his army in 70 AD)
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with (gentile) guests. (Jews cut off from their covenants bt being out of their land are considered to be gentiles by God).
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Ascetic X]

These powers these apostles had are kingdom powers and there has never been a man perform a miracle outside the kingdom context. When Israel lost her national identity in 70 AD and was dispersed into the nations, one should think "graveyard and national burial" and men have performed no miracles since.

You claim that miracles ended with what you call the kingdom. This assertion ignores the miracles in the book of Acts, the gift of working miracles mentioned in Corinthians, and the records of miracles throughout church history.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Jn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Anthony, Your argument makes no sense. It is illogical. It is unreasonable. The OT does not prophesy an assembly, it predicts a kingdom. The gospel accounts are about the kingdom of God, which in Luke 6 `had not been rejected as yet by the builders. He is choosing officers of the kingdom. Twelve apostles and seventy elders. He is not choosing members of the church.

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The gospels records the time of the harvest.
Luke 10:2
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

It is in the end of the old age, not the beginning of the new.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

He 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days (of one of these ages (aions) spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Aions)

He 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (aion) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is (present tense) the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.



These powers these apostles had are kingdom powers and there has never been a man perform a miracle outside the kingdom context. When Israel lost her national identity in 70 AD and was dispersed into the nations, one should think "graveyard and national burial" and men have performed no miracles since.


I sure did not apply the nation Israel to the cornerstone context. This is a prophecy and a prophecy must have a demonstrable fulfillment or it is proven to be a false prophecy according to the scriptures themselves.. Jesus Christ fulfilled this prophecy by his burial and resurrection when he actually became the cornerstone.. If the gospel work of Jesus Christ was the fullness of time, then the resurrection was the beginning of the new age with the birth of the firstborn from the dead. That is what we are told.

WE believe Jesus was a prophet during the days of his earthly ministry. We are told he was. Here.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

I am springing forward for my last point in this post. Jesus gave this prophetic parable on Wednesday of the crucifixion week in the temple at Jerusalem. He would be crucified on Friday. This prophecy begins during the first 7 years after Jesus was killed, buried, and rose again and only those of Jerusalem and Judaea were preached to. Everything was ready for the wedding to take place and he sent heralds to those who were bidden. That would be the Jews. It was his perfect will for them to come and be the bride but they refused and the offer to them ended at the end of Acts 7.


Mt 23:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
V7 is a reference to Titus the Roman and his army in 70 AD)
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with (gentile) guests. (Jews cut off from their covenants bt being out of their land are considered to be gentiles by God).
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

JD, you are now quoting a wide range of passages, but none of them address the point under discussion. Psalm 118:22 identifies the Messiah as the cornerstone. Jesus applies that text directly to Himself in Matthew 21:42 during His earthly ministry. Peter applies the same text to Christ again in Acts 4:11 after the resurrection. That is the Scriptural sequence.

Your appeal to “kingdom officers,” “harvest timing,” “end of the age,” and the parable of the wedding feast does not interact with those cornerstone texts. They are different subjects. The question is not whether Christ is a prophet, nor whether Israel rejected the kingdom, nor whether miracles ceased in AD 70. The question is: When does Scripture say Christ began His building work?

Luke 6:13 records the moment He constituted the apostles: “He chose twelve, whom also He named apostles.” Ephesians 2:20 identifies these men as the foundation stones of the assembly Christ promised to build. The laying of the foundation is the beginning of the building. Pentecost is the empowering of the assembly, not the beginning of its formation.

You have not addressed Psalm 118, Matthew 21, Acts 4, or Luke 6. Until you do, your objections are not interacting with the argument being made.

 

[JD731]

You claim that miracles ended with what you call the kingdom. This assertion ignores the miracles in the book of Acts, the gift of working miracles mentioned in Corinthians, and the records of miracles throughout church history.

Actually I did not assert that miracles ended with what I call the kingdom. I do not believe that at all. What I asserted is that men are not empowered by God to work miracles after the apostolic age. I asserted that men did not work miracles at any time before Moses. Few people in history have ever worked miracles. All miracles that God has equipped men to perform are in the context of national Israel. These types of miracles ended in AD 70 because the nation of Israel ended with the dispersion from their God given land by the hand of the Romans. While they were in this state God dealt with them on a personal and individual way in the nations where they were driven as he has dealt with all gentiles and forming all into a body, one at a time, and equally as children, as they embraced and believed the gospel.

There was a transition in the gospel accounts as national Israel rejected the Messahship of Jesus and his kingly claims and committed the sin that could not be forgiven in that age, neither in the one following, which is this one. You will need to see Jesus saying it.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

These rulers who spoke against the Holy Ghost lived in both ages and the saying proved to be true. The nation was essentially dead and the 70 AD dispersion was a burial.

We learn that Jesus began to speak to the Jews with a different tone after this confrontational event of Matthew 12. Here is an example of his preaching at that time.

MT 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

He had said at the beginning of this discourse with the Jews and knowing their hearts and plans to put him to death. This took place at the end of his ministry on earth.

MT 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.(he was speaking to the cities where he had done his miracles and had proven his claims but who still rejected him for the nation and people)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is a consequential transition of major significance. It would take away the place of these rulers and those who followed them in the next phase of this kingdom, which is the mystery phase where Jesus would reveal in metaphors things concerning the kingdom that had been hidden and unrevealed in the OT prophets. Matthew 13 gives us 7 prophetic parables that describe this age beginning to end.

During the next 40 years these Christ rejecters are blinded (by the parables) and cannot see the truths they contain while God is giving the blessings to the Hebrews of the former dispersion to whom the apostles ministered in Asia minor. They too failed at the end of 40 years to receive the blessings of this age. At that time there was no Israel for God to rule over and his city was burned to the ground along with the temple. So, this age has a spiritual temple that is being built and filled called the church and it's character is gentile.

No worries though because though Israel is buried in the graveyards of the nations, there is a promise of a national resurrection and conversion and a restoration of the physical temple for all of Israel in the future when this spiritual temple, the church, is complete.

Romans was written in 58 AD after the light of the church had been shining historically.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Life from the dead is a resurrection, a national resurrection in this case and a national purging and cleansing by fire and a salvation of every one of them.

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

We all read the same story in the scriptures but come to radically different conclusions because of our different value we assign to words and context

This is what I believe because of what I have read and observed.

There will be many miracles after the church of Jesus Christ, his bride, is taken to the Father's house.

 

[Ascetic X]

Actually I did not assert that miracles ended with what I call the kingdom. I do not believe that at all. What I asserted is that men are not empowered by God to work miracles after the apostolic age. I asserted that men did not work miracles at any time before Moses. Few people in history have ever worked miracles. All miracles that God has equipped men to perform are in the context of national Israel. These types of miracles ended in AD 70 because the nation of Israel ended with the dispersion from their God given land by the hand of the Romans. While they were in this state God dealt with them on a personal and individual way in the nations where they were driven as he has dealt with all gentiles and forming all into a body, one at a time, and equally as children, as they embraced and believed the gospel.

There was a transition in the gospel accounts as national Israel rejected the Messahship of Jesus and his kingly claims and committed the sin that could not be forgiven in that age, neither in the one following, which is this one. You will need to see Jesus saying it.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

These rulers who spoke against the Holy Ghost lived in both ages and the saying proved to be true. The nation was essentially dead and the 70 AD dispersion was a burial.

We learn that Jesus began to speak to the Jews with a different tone after this confrontational event of Matthew 12. Here is an example of his preaching at that time.

MT 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

He had said at the beginning of this discourse with the Jews and knowing their hearts and plans to put him to death. This took place at the end of his ministry on earth.

MT 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.(he was speaking to the cities where he had done his miracles and had proven his claims but who still rejected him for the nation and people)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is a consequential transition of major significance. It would take away the place of these rulers and those who followed them in the next phase of this kingdom, which is the mystery phase where Jesus would reveal in metaphors things concerning the kingdom that had been hidden and unrevealed in the OT prophets. Matthew 13 gives us 7 prophetic parables that describe this age beginning to end.

During the next 40 years these Christ rejecters are blinded (by the parables) and cannot see the truths they contain while God is giving the blessings to the Hebrews of the former dispersion to whom the apostles ministered in Asia minor. They too failed at the end of 40 years to receive the blessings of this age. At that time there was no Israel for God to rule over and his city was burned to the ground along with the temple. So, this age has a spiritual temple that is being built and filled called the church and it's character is gentile.

No worries though because though Israel is buried in the graveyards of the nations, there is a promise of a national resurrection and conversion and a restoration of the physical temple for all of Israel in the future when this spiritual temple, the church, is complete.

Romans was written in 58 AD after the light of the church had been shining historically.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Life from the dead is a resurrection, a national resurrection in this case and a national purging and cleansing by fire and a salvation of every one of them.

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

We all read the same story in the scriptures but come to radically different conclusions because of our different value we assign to words and context

This is what I believe because of what I have read and observed.

There will be many miracles after the church of Jesus Christ, his bride, is taken to the Father's house.

There is no scriptures that confirm your theological error that all miracles ended in AD 70 or at the end of the original apostolic age. This is just theory made by faithless men.

 

[JD731]

There is no scriptures that confirm your theological error that all miracles ended in AD 70 or at the end of the original apostolic age. This is just theory made by faithless men.

Hi Ascetic Xl. I know this is shocking to learn. How many Christians do you know personally who have done mighty miracles? They were raising the dead during the apostolic era. Who do you know who has been raised from the dead and who it was who raised them?

God does many more miraculous works providentially and in answer to prayer than we will ever know but he gets the glory for them.

I say again. Miracles are associated with the gospel of the kingdom.

In Matthew 24 there were 4 apostles who asked Jesus after he had left the temple for the last time and had pronounced judgement upon it saying that one stone would not be left on another til all would be thrown down, “what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the world (aion)?

Jesus said, “this gospel of the kingdom would be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations and then shall the end come.” V 14

God will have men working miracles in those days.

 

[Ascetic X]

Hi Ascetic Xl. I know this is shocking to learn. How many Christians do you know personally who have done mighty miracles? They were raising the dead during the apostolic era. Who do you know who has been raised from the dead and who it was who raised them?

God does many more miraculous works providentially and in answer to prayer than we will ever know but he gets the glory for them.

I say again. Miracles are associated with the gospel of the kingdom.

In Matthew 24 there were 4 apostles who asked Jesus after he had left the temple for the last time and had pronounced judgement upon it saying that one stone would not be left on another til all would be thrown down, “what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the world (aion)?

Jesus said, “this gospel of the kingdom would be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations and then shall the end come.” V 14

God will have men working miracles in those days.

What is shocking is how you persist in a man made theory, but cannot quote scripture to support the idea that miracles would cease when the apostolic age ended. Christian history debunks your claim.

 

[37818]

Matthew 16:17, And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Matthew 16:17, And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.” John 12:32-33

 

[JD731]

What is shocking is how you persist in a man made theory, but cannot quote scripture to support the idea that miracles would cease when the apostolic age ended. Christian history debunks your claim.

Please don't be upset but there were 2500 years Adam to Moses without a single miracle. Since the apostolic era ended in 70 AD with the death of the apostles and the dispersion of the nation Israel there has not been a single miracle performed by a man. The epistles were written to instruct the church on how to behave and there is not a single instruction for anyone to perform miracles, let alone how to check if they are real.

Please name your man/men who have performed miracles and read his authority.

Romans 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. (the apostolic authority)
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man s foundation:
21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

 

[Ascetic X]

Please don't be upset but there were 2500 years Adam to Moses without a single miracle. Since the apostolic era ended in 70 AD with the death of the apostles and the dispersion of the nation Israel there has not been a single miracle performed by a man.

Church history contains many records of miracles performed by believers in the name of Jesus Christ.

You still have not provided any scripture verses that say miracles will cease upon the death of the apostles.

The epistles were written to instruct the church on how to behave and there is not a single instruction for anyone to perform miracles, let alone how to check if they are real.

1 Corinthians 12

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

[JD731]

Church history contains many records of miracles performed by believers in the name of Jesus Christ.

You still have not provided any scripture verses that say miracles will cease upon the death of the apostles.




1 Corinthians 12

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

According to your reasoning the history of the church should record occasions for the exercise of the word of wisdom gift.
Also the word of knowledge
Also the gift of faith
Also the gifts of healing
Also the working of miracles
Also prophecy
Also discerning spirits
Also different kinds of tongues
Also interpretation of tongues

Now we know all these gifts are not being performed by the church now. We do not even know what most of them are because they belong to a different era.

First Corinthians was written by Paul in AD 54. It was the 4th epistle of the total of 13 he wrote as apostle of the gentiles. This gives us an insight of the primitive church before it, the church was fully structured and the Bible was completed. There is so far no instructions about the pastors and deacons. He would give those instructions in writing to Timothy and Titus in 63 AD, nine years later when he wrote his letters to them.

 

[Ascetic X]

According to your reasoning the history of the church should record occasions for the exercise of the word of wisdom gift.
Also the word of knowledge
Also the gift of faith
Also the gifts of healing
Also the working of miracles
Also prophecy
Also discerning spirits
Also different kinds of tongues
Also interpretation of tongues

Now we know all these gifts are not being performed by the church now. We do not even know what most of them are because they belong to a different era.

First Corinthians was written by Paul in AD 54. It was the 4th epistle of the total of 13 he wrote as apostle of the gentiles. This gives us an insight of the primitive church before it, the church was fully structured and the Bible was completed. There is so far no instructions about the pastors and deacons. He would give those instructions in writing to Timothy and Titus in 63 AD, nine years later when he wrote his letters to them.

Who says we know all these gifts are not being performed by the church now?

What we actually know is that theologians who treat Christianity as just a philosophy, with no supernatural powers, have apparently imposed their lack of faith on your pastor whose cessationism is misleading you into pompous assertions.

All these gifts have been operated throughout church history, especially in the Orthodox faith.

These gifts do not belong to a different era, they were given to the church until Christ returns. You are disobeying the command to covet the best gifts.

1 Corinthians 12

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[percho]

August 12, 2026

Would there be a church [assembly] today had not Jesus of Nazareth died and been raised out of the dead by God the Father?

Gal 1:1-5 YLT Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- and all the brethren with me, to the assemblies [churches] of Galatia: Grace to you, and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father, to whom is the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen

Col 1:18 YLT And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly [church]-- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first,

Acts 4:10,11 YLT be it known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye did crucify, [kill] whom God did raise out of the dead, in him hath this one stood by before you whole. 'This is the stone that was set at nought by you -- the builders, that became head of a corner;

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

August 12, 2026

Would there be a church [assembly] today had not Jesus of Nazareth died and been raised out of the dead by God the Father?

You are asking two different questions as if they were one.

1. Would there be a church today if Christ had not died and risen? Of course not. Without redemption there would be no redeemed people. There would be no purpose for a church.
2. Does that mean the church began at the resurrection? No. Scripture never says that.

 

[JD731]

.

1. Does that mean the church began at the resurrection? No. Scripture never says that.

Actually, I think it does more than one time. First, the op makes the case that the choosing of the apostles was the beginning of the church because it is a called out assembly and is the time of the commissioning of the twelve apostles, though one was a devil. This logic comes, at least in part, by comparing Luke 6:13 with Ephesians 2;:20 where we have the building in it's three parts described as Jesus the cornerstone, the apostles & prophets the foundation, and the Jewish and gentile believers making up the super structure as living stones. Luke 6:13 tells us that Jesus choose 12 disciples there. The logic then says that since Jesus is the cornerstone and is present and the apostles are now chosen and both are in a local meeting, then this must be the beginning of the church, or at least the foundation of it and therefore establishes the church as always a local assembly of believers.

That logic breaks down rather quickly in light of a more thorough study. The church is not only shown to be an organization but a living organism While the building shows that Christ lives in it as the temple, the idea is that we are made alive IN HIM. This of course would include the foundation stones which were laid on the stone the builders rejected, the cornerstone of the church. Because of it's character it is called a new man in Christ and is a collective in nature. Local assemblies have unsaved members mixed in but the collective does not.

Jesus said in John 3:5 that any man entering into the kingdom of God must be born again in order to enter. I have not only showed where these apostles will be in the kingdom but they will sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. They were not born again in Lk 6 when they were chosen.
Again, with these men present Jesus said this to men of Israel in John 6:
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

We are not to that place in the scriptures yet where believers dwell in him and he in them. It will require the shedding of his blood.

He says in John chapter 7 these words of clarification.
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).
This tells us that salvation comes only through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. This will include the apostles and all OT pre-cross believers.

Paul would say 58 years later these words;
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Why does that matter?
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Somebody will say then, many people believed in Jesus before he was crucified, were they not saved. The answer is no, they were justified by faith and the Father, the judge of all the earth, counted their faith in believing what he said to them for righteousness but that did not clear them of their personal sins and save them. The blood of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can wash away our sins and when that happens we can have the Holy Spirit live in us. Without shedding of blood is no remission. He 9:22 All justified believers were declared innocent and without guilt by the Judge because they had faith and faith in the words of God is what is required for that but it takes the application of the blood of the Lamb to wash them away.

With that in mind compare these two passages to clarify:

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We know what the renewing of the Holy Ghost is but what is this washing of regeneration? Answer;

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The apostles and the prophets received the Spirit and were regenerated on resurrection day as recorded in John 20 when Jesus breathed on them and imparted his Spirit to them. Israel, the people of God had the Spirit poured out on them in Acts 2 at Pentecost fifty days later. Ten years later the Spirit was poured out on the gentile world and since then every body in the world can open their hearts and drink him in and possess the gift of eternal life free of charge. This will be true til the end of this age.

This is wonderful truth and the church of Jesus Christ is built upon his death and burial and resurrection. and all glory to him for his wonderful grace of saving me.