Women Pastors?

[timf]

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

If there is that in their constitution that makes them more suited to being a helper, it might also make them more susceptible to deception. However, given the level of deceptions today, it might not be that noticeable.

 

[Silverhair]

1 Timothy 2:12, 3:15
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.,,,,
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Seems like you are the one who has it backwards, friend. Paul’s instructions were for the church.

It would seem that you have fallen into the trap of building a view from isolated verses rather than the whole word of God.

Paul IMO was stating a personal opinion that would be considered appropriate for the time he was in.

When studying the Bible, it's important to consider the time period, culture, geography, politics, customs, and challenges faced by the original audience. Understanding these elements helps clarify the author's intent and the message being communicated.

 

[Kai]

Paul IMO was stating a personal opinion that would be considered appropriate for the time he was in.

As much as I can respect your zeal, personal opinions are not authoritative unless they can be backed up by Scripture.

When studying the Bible, it's important to consider the time period, culture, geography, politics, customs, and challenges faced by the original audience.

1 Timothy 3:2 says that an overseer of a church must be a husband of one wife (not a wife of one husband). This only leaves room for men that Paul has in mind; therefore, any appeal to culture becomes irrelevant.

 

[Kai]

@Silverhair, please consider the following:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

If every word Paul penned in Scripture carries the same weight as God's direct voice, then whenever you set aside something as merely the author's personal opinions, you're essentially treating those same scriptural words as God's personal opinions too.

 

[Silverhair]

As much as I can respect your zeal, personal opinions are not authoritative unless they can be backed up by Scripture.



1 Timothy 3:2 says that an overseer of a church must be a husband of one wife (not a wife of one husband). This only leaves room for men that Paul has in mind; therefore, any appeal to culture becomes irrelevant.

If you are going to trust scripture then perhaps you should look at who were the first persons explicitly commissioned to go and preach the news of the resurrection of Christ Jesus.

That would be women.

Mat 28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” They came to Him, grasped His feet, and worshiped Him.
Mat 28:10 “Do not be afraid,” said Jesus. “Go and tell My brothers to go to Galilee. There they will see Me.”

If Jesus saw fit to have women be the first ones to preach then who are we to say they cannot preach?

 

[Kai]

If Jesus saw fit to have women be the first ones to preach then who are we to say they cannot preach?

The issue here isn't over whether women should preach the Gospel. The issue is about what roles Scripture permits them to serve in an organized church setting.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair, please consider the following:


If every word Paul penned in Scripture carries the same weight as God's direct voice, then whenever you set aside something as merely the author's personal opinions, you're essentially treating those same scriptural words as God's personal opinions too.

Paul was addressing situations in local churches whether Ephesus or Corinth.

 

[Kai]

Paul was addressing situations in local churches whether Ephesus or Corinth.

What point are you trying to make?

If Paul was addressing and helping to correct specific behaviors in the different churches he visited, then his guidance carries just as much weight as God speaking directly to those communities, and we can apply those same principles to all churches in every place and throughout all of time.

 

[Silverhair]

What point are you trying to make?

If Paul was addressing and helping to correct specific behaviors in the different churches he visited, then his guidance carries just as much weight as God speaking directly to those communities, and we can apply those same principles to all churches in every place and throughout all of time.

Look at the problems that were present in those churches do you find them in all churches?

That is the point you keep running past, Paul was correcting specific behaviors in those churches.

You see God limiting who can teach the word of God I see that He has called all Christians to be ready to do just that.

 

[Kai]

Look at the problems that were present in those churches do you find them in all churches?

Those very same issues might pop up in churches in different places down the road. When they do, we've got Scripture right there as our guide to help us address and fix those behaviors. Are you suggesting that just because Paul didn't send letters to every single church out there, they somehow get to skip accountability?

You see God limiting who can teach the word of God I see that He has called all Christians to be ready to do just that.

Women are not limited from teaching the word of God. They are only limited from doing so as a shepherd of a flock.

 

[Silverhair]

Those very same issues might pop up in churches in different places down the road. When they do, we've got Scripture right there as our guide to help us address and fix those behaviors. Are you suggesting that just because Paul didn't send letters to every single church out there, they somehow get to skip accountability?

Not at all as that is how we should use scripture don't you think.

Women are not limited from teaching the word of God. They are only limited from doing so as a shepherd of a flock.

That is how you see it but the bible shows us that God has used women to lead and teach and I have not seen where He changed His mind.

 

[Kai]

Not at all as that is how we should use scripture don't you think.

Yes. But that doesn’t mean we get to wave off uncomfortable passages as cultural norms of the day.

That is how you see it but the bible shows us that God has used women to lead and teach and I have not seen where He changed His mind.

I have no problem with women leading and teaching, but doing so in the church is in an entirely different category.

I appreciate the discussion so far, but I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement.

 

[Salty]

Not at all as that is how we should use scripture don't you think.


That is how you see it but the bible shows us that God has used women to lead and teach and I have not seen where He changed His mind.

Where does the Bible show us that a woman was a pastor?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. But that doesn’t mean we get to wave off uncomfortable passages as cultural norms of the day.

I agree we do not get to wave off scripture that we do not like and that is why I have not done so.

I have pointed out to you what Paul was doing and you disagree.

I appreciate the discussion so far, but I don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement.

Yes I agree we are not going to agree on this matter. But as you said I also have appreciated the discusuion.

 

[Silverhair]

Where does the Bible show us that a woman was a pastor?

Where does it call anyone a pastor. But we do see that women were teachers.

We can look at Junia in Rom 16:7.

Regarding Junia

An attempt should be made to answer the following questions with respect to which opinions vary:
a. Should we read Junias (masc.) or Junia (fem.)? In the latter case Andronicus and Junia could be husband and wife.
b. Did Paul say, “my fellow-countrymen” or “my relatives”?
c. Does “who are outstanding among the apostles” mean “outstanding in the estimation of The Twelve” or does it mean, “who, as apostles, are outstanding”? Baker's New Testament Commentary

Rom_16:7, he designates Andronicus and Junia, his kinsmen and fellow-prisoners who were distinguished among the apostles and who had been converted before Paul, that is, before 34 a.d., at least eight years before it was ever pretended that Peter was in Rome. Other persons are also mentioned as distinguished, and it is not improbable that they were the early founders of the church at Rome (Rom_16:12-13, etc.) Barnes

Of note among the apostles.—An ambiguous expression, which might mean, and, judging by the word alone, would perhaps more naturally be taken to mean, “distinguished as Apostles themselves.” This sense is not to be disregarded as absolutely impossible, for the title “Apostles” does not appear to have been limited to the Twelve. Ellicott

If it is feminine and if the phrase "the apostles" referred to a wider use of that term than "the Twelve," then this was a lady apostle.
It is also interesting that the spelling "Junias" has not been found anywhere in Roman literature or inscriptions, but the name "Junia" was very common. Utley

According to the broader application of the term, such men as Barnabas, Epaphroditus, Apollos, Silvanus, and Timothy are all called “apostles.” They all evangelize. They can be described as missionaries or itinerant Christian evangelists.

So the question is did these men as apostles teach other men and if they did then they would logically have had authority over them.

Why would it be any different for Junia and other women that we are told taught?

 

[Salty]

Where does it call anyone a pastor. But we do see that women were teachers.

1) The title of this thread is "Women Pastors" NOT "Women Teachers" !

2) As Perry Mason would say: "Let me rephrase, your Honor"

Where does the Bible show us that a woman was a pastor elder?

 

[Kai]

I have pointed out to you what Paul was doing and you disagree.

Can I ask then, what other places in Scripture do you see the writers giving their own personal opinions?

 

[Silverhair]

1) The title of this thread is "Women Pastors" NOT "Women Teachers" !

2) As Perry Mason would say: "Let me rephrase, your Honor"

Where does the Bible show us that a woman was a pastor elder?

Where does it say in the bible that a man was a pastor?

The term was not used at that time.

They were canned teachers or rabbi's

 

[Silverhair]

Can I ask then, what other places in Scripture do you see the writers giving their own personal opinions?

In 1Ti_2:12 Paul writes, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;

In 1Co_14:34-35 Paul instructs women to "remain silent in the churches," stating they are not permitted to speak.

Those are his views of how to deal with the situations happening in those churches.

You have latched onto those verses but you ignore verses that show women teaching and being in authority.

I have pointed you to those verses but I can not make you accept them. You have your closed view of whom God will use and I see from scripture that He will use whom He chooses, male or female.

 

[Kai]

Where does it say in the bible that a man was a pastor?

The term was not used at that time.

The terms that are used in the Bible are "overseer" (episkopos) and "elder" (presbuteros), and both words are used interchangeably. When we say "pastor," we are talking about that same office.

Since Paul appeals to the male headship established at creation and speaks specifically of husbands, that only allows room for men to hold the title of overseer/elder/pastor.

Women are free to lead and teach others as much as they want, but when it comes to church gatherings, there are restrictions.