Firing Squad at Ft Hood, Tx

[Ascetic X]

So you are happy for people to be executed, suffering and humiliated as long as its out of sight?

What does believers tortured for their faith got to with this? What about those believers imprisoned for their faith? - does this now mean your against anyone imprisoned?

I am in favor of biblical justice being done to murderers. I do not need to watch it happen and I feel no happiness about it.

Again, why do you want to view the execution?

Do you also want to start, as you mentioned, placing people in stocks in the city square?

Do you enjoy slasher films and violent video games, since you seem to want to watch the suffering of people?

I am just trying to understand your orientation toward these issues.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do not think we can apply the instructions in the OT to contemporary settings. We may, but at the same time we have to consider the purpose for killing the killer, which leads to different views.

It is hard to miss that those who shed man's blood were to be killed. It is equally hard to miss the first instance of man killing man and God protecting that murderer from being killed.

I believe the purpose for executions in the OT was to preserve a people (prior to and under the Law). If I am correct then it does not apply today.

Either way, it is not justice (it does not right a wrong, it does not create a just situation from injustice, etc)

But later on in Exodus God told Moses how that was to be carried out. Even an Ox, if it killed a man (by goring him/her), if it did it again, he was to be stoned to death/executed. And provisions were made if someone died when an axe slipped off and someone was killed, they could go to a city (I think there were six, three on each side of the Jordan) where they could flee for protection until he was given a fair hearing.

I cannot find any place in the NT where the civil penalties prescribed in the Law were abrogated, or changed.

 

[canadyjd]

The point was made that since some on death row are found innocent, no one should be executed.

Prosecution is not perfect, but the death penalty is biblical.

Numbers 35:31

Moreover ye shall take no payment for the life of a murderer who is deserving of death, but he shall be surely put to death.

Leviticus 24:17

And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.

And yet…

The first murderer, Cain, was not put to death and shown mercy by God

After the flood, before the Law, Moses murdered the Egyptian and was not “surely” put to death but was shown mercy by God.

After the Law, David had Uriah the Hittite killed so he could have his wife. He was not “surely” put to death but was shown mercy by God.

After Jesus was resurrected, Paul murdered Christians. He was not “surely” put to death and, as clearly stated in 1 Timothy, God showed him mercy as an example for future Christians to follow.

You cannot follow the commandment of God found in 1 Timothy to show mercy to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul, while supporting putting them to death.

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

And yet…

The first murderer, Cain, was not put to death and shown mercy by God

After the flood, before the Law, Moses murdered the Egyptian and was not “surely” put to death but was shown mercy by God.

After the Law, David had Uriah the Hittite killed so he could have his wife. He was not “surely” put to death but was shown mercy by God.

After Jesus was resurrected, Paul murdered Christians. He was not “surely” put to death and, as clearly stated in 1 Timothy, God showed him mercy as an example for future Christians to follow.

You cannot follow the commandment of God found in 1 Timothy to show mercy to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul, while supporting putting them to death.

Peace to you

But then again…

Cain was before the law.

Moses did not intend to kill the guy.

David was king, could pardon himself, and would not enforce the law on himself.

Paul did not personally murder anyone, but was authorized to capture Christians who were then imprisoned and executed by stoning I suppose.

Even if there were a few exceptions or nuances to the law concerning the execution of murderers, they do not negate the law.

Numbers 35:31

Moreover ye shall take no payment for the life of a murderer who is deserving of death, but he shall be surely put to death.

Leviticus 24:17

And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.

 

[canadyjd]

….

I cannot find any place in the NT where the civil penalties prescribed in the Law were abrogated, or changed.

I can. In John’s gospel.

When the woman caught in adultery was brought before Jesus, He could have commanded both she and the man be stoned to death, in accordance with OT Law.

Jesus said, “let the one without sin be the first to cast a stone at her”

Jesus didn’t say this just to shame them. Jesus CHANGED the Prescribed penalties for capital cases.

Just as He changed our understanding of adultery when He stated if you look upon a woman with lust, you have committed adultery in your heart.

Under the OT Law, two or three witnesses were to be the first to throw stones. By doing so, they were taking the blood of those killed upon themselves, proclaiming their accusations to be true. There testimony and actions would be judged by God.

Jesus CHANGED those conditions. Only the One without sin can initiate the death penalty. The only one without sin is God Himself.

Only God can judge without bias, with true justice.

God has made governments an instrument of His judgement, even giving them authority for capital punishment.

But for Christians, He has commanded us to be different from the world. To show mercy and compassion, even to murderers like Paul.

Who among us has the courage to follow such a commandment, when the world, even many Christians, cry out for death.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

But then again…

Cain was before the law.

So? If God had given an absolute commandment that murderers would be put to death, that wouldn’t matter.

Moses did not intend to kill the guy.

Of course he did. He followed him, killed him, hid his body in the sand, then fled to avoid prosecution.

David was king and would not enforce the law on himself.

I’m sorry, I didn’t see that part in the Law you quoted that the king was exempt from any penalties.

Paul did not personally murder anyone, but was authorized to capture Christians who were then imprisoned and executed by stoning I suppose.

Paul specifically says he persecuted Christians to the death. He considered himself the worst of all sinners. If Paul didn’t make an excuse for his murders, you shouldn’t either.

Some exceptions to the law concerning the execution of murderers do not negate the law

Will you address the 1 Timothy 1 passage that specifically states God showed mercy toward Paul, the murderer, as an example future Christians are to follow?

Will you follow the command of God and show mercy toward murderers like Paul?

Peace to you

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, and intellectually dishonest to even say it.

My “stance” is what Apostle Paul told Timothy in 1 Timothy. I’m following God’s word.

God showed mercy toward Paul, a murderer, as an example that future Christians are to follow.

I notice that when people realize a passage of scripture teaches something they disagree with, they tend to throw up all sorts of silly accusations, and never attempt to address the passage.

Why don’t you address the passage?

Please explain why Paul’s teaching in 1 Timothy doesn’t say what it clearly says?

Peace to you

And yet Paul stated in Acts 25:11 if he did anything worthy of death, he did not refuse to die. And my apologies for that statement coming off that way, as it was not my intent to put words in your mouth [I stated as much in an earlier post].

 

[JonC]

But later on in Exodus God told Moses how that was to be carried out. Even an Ox, if it killed a man (by goring him/her), if it did it again, he was to be stoned to death/executed. And provisions were made if someone died when an axe slipped off and someone was killed, they could go to a city (I think there were six, three on each side of the Jordan) where they could flee for protection until he was given a fair hearing.

I cannot find any place in the NT where the civil penalties prescribed in the Law were abrogated, or changed.

But that was under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was not unjust (obviously) but it was also not justice. It was a covenant designed to "keep" a people.

We cannot apply capital punishment under the Old Covenant to today, just as we can't apply it to those who lived before Moses or after Christ, or outside of the Israeli people.

It simply does not apply.

If it did then so would publically executing an adulterous woman and disobedient children.

What may apply (where I believe you could develop a strong argument) is the "blood crying out" apart from the Old Covenant.

I still view the circumstances as different (especially since God Himself marked Cain so that he would not be killed for murdering Abel). But it would be a better argument.

 

[Ascetic X]

I can. In John’s gospel.

When the woman caught in adultery was brought before Jesus, He could have commanded both she and the man be stoned to death, in accordance with OT Law.

Jesus said, “let the one without sin be the first to cast a stone at her”

Jesus didn’t say this just to shame them. Jesus CHANGED the Prescribed penalties for capital cases.

Just as He changed our understanding of adultery when He stated if you look upon a woman with lust, you have committed adultery in your heart.

Under the OT Law, two or three witnesses were to be the first to throw stones. By doing so, they were taking the blood of those killed upon themselves, proclaiming their accusations to be true. There testimony and actions would be judged by God.

Jesus CHANGED those conditions. Only the One without sin can initiate the death penalty. The only one without sin is God Himself.

Only God can judge without bias, with true justice.

God has made governments an instrument of His judgement, even giving them authority for capital punishment.

But for Christians, He has commanded us to be different from the world. To show mercy and compassion, even to murderers like Paul.

Who among us has the courage to follow such a commandment, when the world, even many Christians, cry out for death.

Peace to you

You greatly misunderstand why the woman caught in adultery was not stoned. The accusers were unjust by not bringing the man involved in the adultery.

Jesus did not abolish the underlying law, but rather exposed the hypocrisy of the accusers and the requirement that witnesses participate lawfully, concluding with a command to "go, and from now on sin no more," rather than a structural rejection of the death penalty, which was for over 20 different offenses.

Jesus wrote the names of the guilty accusers in the sand, exposing them as adulterers themselves, causing them to leave the scene.

The death penalty was initiated in the Old Testament by imperfect king judges who were not sinless.

In Genesis 38:24-26, when Judah is told that Tamar (his former daughter-in-law) had become a harlot and was pregnant, he sentences her to death by burning. However, she proves that he (Judah) is the father, and (apparently) the ruling is reversed.

During the period that the Israelites wandered the wilderness, examples include: A man was stoned for gathering wood on Sabbath,[35] while another was stoned for blasphemy.

In the rebellion of Korah, the ground opened up swallowing Korah, other leaders, and their families; and a heavenly fire consumed another 250 followers. The next day, all the Israelites railed against Moses and Aaron, blaming them for the deaths, and God sent a plague that killed another 14,700.

During the period of Kings, examples include: Elijah captured and "slaughtered" the prophets of Baal.

King Asa and the tribes who followed him made a covenant to worship God and "whoever would not worship the LORD God of Israel would be put to death."

King Ahab eliminated Naboth (to get his land) by getting false witnesses to testify that Naboth had blasphemed God and the King.

In the uprising against Athaliah when Jehoash was appointed king of Judah, Mattan, the priest of Baal was killed.

 

[JonC]

I think we have to decide what covenant (law) to follow.

If we follow and apply the Old Covenant then we do need to publically execute murderers, adulterers, and disobedient children.

If we follow the New Covenant then our judgment is restricted towards those within.


BUT we cannot ride the fence. We cannot support capital punishment as "biblical judgment" yet back away from publically executing disobedient children, pagans, gay people, adulters, etc.

 

[Ascetic X]

So? If God had given an absolute commandment that murderers would be put to death, that wouldn’t matter.

Of course he did. He followed him, killed him, hid his body in the sand, then fled to avoid prosecution.

I’m sorry, I didn’t see that part in the Law you quoted that the king was exempt from any penalties.

Paul specifically says he persecuted Christians to the death. He considered himself the worst of all sinners. If Paul didn’t make an excuse for his murders, you shouldn’t either.

Will you address the 1 Timothy 1 passage that specifically states God showed mercy toward Paul, the murderer, as an example future Christians are to follow?

Will you follow the command of God and show mercy toward murderers like Paul?

Peace to you

Cain murdered before the law about murderers being put to death was given to Moses. A law cannot be enforced before the law exists!

Moses did commit murder; the only question is whether there could be mitigating circumstances that allow the action to be less than a capital offense, maybe even down to justifiable homicide.

This was vigilantism. Moses thought he should play the judge, even though his only "office" was in his mind. He had no calling, no recognition; the people he supposedly represented were at best divided about his quality, upon hearing of his deed (presumably from the man he saved).

Paul did not murder anyone.

Persecuting to their death means his persecution resulted in their deaths, but not by Paul himself.

• Acts 22:4 – "I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them in prison." (NIV) [
• Acts 26:10 – "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them." (NASB)
• Acts 8:1–3 – Describes Saul approving of the stoning of Stephen and going house-to-house to drag Christian men and women off to prison.
• Acts 9:1 – Notes that Saul was still "breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord" right before his conversion on the road to Damascus.
• 1 Corinthians 15:9 – Paul later reflects on his past, writing, "For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

 

[SovereignGrace]

I can. In John’s gospel.

When the woman caught in adultery was brought before Jesus, He could have commanded both she and the man be stoned to death, in accordance with OT Law.

Jesus said, “let the one without sin be the first to cast a stone at her”

Jesus didn’t say this just to shame them. Jesus CHANGED the Prescribed penalties for capital cases.

Just as He changed our understanding of adultery when He stated if you look upon a woman with lust, you have committed adultery in your heart.

Under the OT Law, two or three witnesses were to be the first to throw stones. By doing so, they were taking the blood of those killed upon themselves, proclaiming their accusations to be true. There testimony and actions would be judged by God.

Jesus CHANGED those conditions. Only the One without sin can initiate the death penalty. The only one without sin is God Himself.

Only God can judge without bias, with true justice.

God has made governments an instrument of His judgement, even giving them authority for capital punishment.

But for Christians, He has commanded us to be different from the world. To show mercy and compassion, even to murderers like Paul.

Who among us has the courage to follow such a commandment, when the world, even many Christians, cry out for death.

Peace to you

I'm glad you brought this passage up, as this supports my stance. In the Law, none could be executed unless there were two or three witnesses. Also, if a false testimony was given, they were to be punished for it in their place. They brought her, but not the man who was with her, as it takes two to commit adultery [I mean in this instance as looking and lusting after someone constitutes adultery as well]. They said they caught her, but in reality, it was supposed to be him and her, not just her. This was a bogus claim, and Jesus knew it. Also, none were willing to say "I was the one who saw her", only a bunch of guys trying to test Him. No one was willing to step up and accuse her before the congregation, as they knew if they were found to have given a false witness, they would be stoned.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Paul did not murder anyone.

Persecuting to their death means his persecution resulted in their deaths, but not by Paul himself.

• Acts 22:4 – "I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them in prison." (NIV) [
• Acts 26:10 – "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them." (NASB)
• Acts 8:1–3 – Describes Saul approving of the stoning of Stephen and going house-to-house to drag Christian men and women off to prison.
• Acts 9:1 – Notes that Saul was still "breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord" right before his conversion on the road to Damascus.
• 1 Corinthians 15:9 – Paul later reflects on his past, writing, "For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

However, he was consenting to Stephen's stoning, which made him guilty as well.

 

[Ascetic X]

However, he was consenting to Stephen's stoning, which made him guilty as well.

Consenting to the death of an alleged blasphemer is very different from actually committing an execution. If I approve of the murder of someone, I am legally not guilty of murder.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You greatly misunderstand why the woman caught in adultery was not stoned. The accusers were unjust by not bringing the man involved in the adultery.

Jesus did not abolish the underlying law, but rather exposed the hypocrisy of the accusers and the requirement that witnesses participate lawfully, concluding with a command to "go, and from now on sin no more," rather than a structural rejection of the death penalty, which was for over 20 different offenses.

Jesus wrote the names of the guilty accusers in the sand, exposing them as adulterers themselves, causing them to leave the scene.

The death penalty was initiated in the Old Testament by imperfect king judges who were not sinless.

In Genesis 38:24-26, when Judah is told that Tamar (his former daughter-in-law) had become a harlot and was pregnant, he sentences her to death by burning. However, she proves that he (Judah) is the father, and (apparently) the ruling is reversed.

During the period that the Israelites wandered the wilderness, examples include: A man was stoned for gathering wood on Sabbath,[35] while another was stoned for blasphemy.

In the rebellion of Korah, the ground opened up swallowing Korah, other leaders, and their families; and a heavenly fire consumed another 250 followers. The next day, all the Israelites railed against Moses and Aaron, blaming them for the deaths, and God sent a plague that killed another 14,700.

During the period of Kings, examples include: Elijah captured and "slaughtered" the prophets of Baal.

King Asa and the tribes who followed him made a covenant to worship God and "whoever would not worship the LORD God of Israel would be put to death."

King Ahab eliminated Naboth (to get his land) by getting false witnesses to testify that Naboth had blasphemed God and the King.

In the uprising against Athaliah when Jehoash was appointed king of Judah, Mattan, the priest of Baal was killed.

Plus, I'm not going to hash out that passage, as its a textual variant that none truly knows if this took place.

 

[canadyjd]

And yet Paul stated in Acts 25:11 if he did anything worthy of death, he did not refuse to die.

Ok, but you continue to avoid addressing the 1 Timothy passage

And my apologies for that statement coming off that way, as it was not my intent to put words in your mouth [I stated as much in an earlier post].

Accepted, no worries.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

You greatly misunderstand why the woman caught in adultery was not stoned. The accusers were unjust by not bringing the man involved in the adultery.

As I stated, Jesus could have demanded they both be stoned to death, correct?

Jesus did not abolish the underlying law, but rather exposed the hypocrisy of the accusers and the requirement that witnesses participate lawfully,

No, He changed the conditions for initiating the death penalty. He could have exposed the hypocrisy by demanding the man stoned as well.

I think you miss the point of the passage. Jesus is saying mankind are unable to implement justice without bias, especially the death penalty. Only God can do so.

concluding with a command to "go, and from now on sin no more," rather than a structural rejection of the death penalty, which was for over 20 different offenses.

Correct, Jesus did not excuse her sin. He showed mercy, just as He instructs us to show mercy

Jesus wrote the names of the guilty accusers in the sand, exposing them as adulterers themselves, causing them to leave the scene.

Scripture does not reveal what Jesus wrote in the sand. That is speculation. He could just as well have written, “I desire mercy not sacrifice” or “do not judge with bias”. We don’t know.

The death penalty was initiated in the Old Testament by imperfect king judges who were not sinless.

God often uses imperfect people to accomplish His will. He really has little other choice, does He?

In Genesis 38:24-26, when Judah is told that Tamar (his former daughter-in-law) had become a harlot and was pregnant, he sentences her to death by burning. However, she proves that he (Judah) is the father, and (apparently) the ruling is reversed.

Not sure what that has to do with this discussion.

During the period that the Israelites wandered the wilderness, examples include: A man was stoned for gathering wood on Sabbath,[35] while another was stoned for blasphemy.

Ok, the OT Law was very harsh.

In the rebellion of Korah, the ground opened up swallowing Korah, other leaders, and their families; and a heavenly fire consumed another 250 followers. The next day, all the Israelites railed against Moses and Aaron, blaming them for the deaths, and God sent a plague that killed another 14,700.

Ok, God administers justice as He sees fit. That doesn’t change what God gave us in 1 Timothy 1, which you still have not addressed directly.

During the period of Kings, examples include: Elijah captured and "slaughtered" the prophets of Baal.

Ok

King Asa and the tribes who followed him made a covenant to worship God and "whoever would not worship the LORD God of Israel would be put to death."

Ok

King Ahab eliminated Naboth (to get his land) by getting false witnesses to testify that Naboth had blasphemed God and the King.

Ok

In the uprising against Athaliah when Jehoash was appointed king of Judah, Mattan, the priest of Baal was killed.

Ok, sure am glad I don’t live during the OT period and that we don’t live under the OT Law.

None of what you quoted has any bearing on how Christians should view the death penalty today.

1 Timothy 1 has a direct application on this subject.

God showed mercy to Paul, the murderer, as an example for future Christians to follow.

I urge you to meditate on the passage and seek guidance from God Holy Spirit.

Peace to you

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ok, but you continue to avoid addressing the 1 Timothy passage

Accepted, no worries.

Peace to you

There really isn't anything to address as nothing Paul stated in 1 Timothy 1 refutes my stance. God told Moses “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”[Exodus 33:19]

Paul received mercy as God, the Lawgiver, has the right to either punish or grant mercy. We do not have that right. The civil government does not have that right. They must carry out what God deemed to be justice for those murdered. Look at David in 2 Samuel 12. By all accounts, in accordance with the Law, David should have been executed for committing adultery and having Uriah killed. Yet God, as the Lawgiver, chose to show mercy to him. Same with Saul/Paul.

 

[Ben1445]

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

And it isn’t for using on his lunch. NT still shows use of capital punishment.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

And it isn’t for using on his lunch. NT still shows use of capital punishment.

And go back a few verses and there's this, Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.[Romans 12:14-21]


Here we see that we are not to take the law into our own hands, but allow the civil government to do it for us. He said "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay", and that is followed later by the verse you just posted, Romans 13:4. His vengeance is to be meted out by the civil government, and if they do not do as He says, they too will pay.