Freed From The Arminian Camp

[tyndale1946]

This is only for my Calvinist brethren and those of the Calvinist persuasion... You Arminian brethren don't need to respond as you are still in bondage... Your free willism proves it.

My question is this there is no one born in the world a Calvinist as Calvinism is a journey... At heart we all think that we can save ourselves and until we reach the point where we know we can't do we embrace the Calvinist belief... Which is also the biblical truth.

Those brethren who have come out of Arminism know that the chains of untruth that used to bind them are now gone... They are not bound by that law that also bound the Jews... You Arminian brethren can disagree all you want but those who have come from your camp know that they have been delivered by a great deliverance... If not why would they throw off the chains of bondage?

I know the Arminian brethren are probably grinding their teeth right now... and Brother Bill is a puzzle to me... How could one go from Arminianism to Calvinism back to Arminianism again I guess he likes to be in... Well you Calvinist brethren know!... So what freed you and how did you come to the truth?... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

[KenH]

Here's my story -

I was treasurer for the College Avenue Church of Christ from 1980 - 1986 and taught adult Bible classes from 1989 - early 1999.

While listening to my portable short-wave radio in 1989 I came across the "Open Forum" on Family Radio and started listening to Harold Camping answer questions from callers. He is a Calvinist and it was the first time I had given the Doctrines of Grace an honest hearing. It was then that I understood how one could be eternally secure in salvation, which was a doctrine I had thought was false. I could see how it would be true if the first four points of Calvinism were true.

Family Radio also has a program called "Echoes" where they broadcast sermons from Calvinistic preachers. I received their program guide in
1995(I think that was the year) and saw where they were going to have a series on Calvinism by a Free Presbyterian preacher named Stephen
Hamilton who is Scottish. I ordered the tapes from the church where the series took place in Pennsylvania. While listening to these tapes, especially the one on Limited Atonement, my eyes were opened to the truth of these doctrines.

Upon purchasing a new computer in early 1998, I found lots of excellent material on the Internet concerning Calvinism. I also became acquainted via the Internet with Ken Wimer, pastor of
Shreveport Grace Church, about 100 miles from here. I visited his congregation and obtained a copy of Arthur W. Pink's book, The Sovereignty of God. I don't think I have read a book faster in my life. I couldn't wait to get to the next page. With all of this truth that the Holy Spirit was opening my spiritual eyes to, I saw where I had to trust Christ and His finished work alone for my salvation. Between Pink's book and a conference I attended at Shreveport Grace Church, it became evident to me that with the faith I had received as a gift from my
gracious Father, I could no longer remain a member of the Church of Christ. So by the end of 1998, God had shown me I had to leave. I was teaching a class at the time that would not be finished until the last Sunday of February, and when I finished teaching the class, I did not attend the College Avenue Church of Christ again.

Now where would I become a church member? I married Jo Lynn in March 1994. She was attending West Side Baptist Church, a Southern Baptist
congregation. When we decided to marry, she was going to join the Church of Christ, but backed out because she didn't believe its doctrine. I was sad about that at the time and now I thank God that she didn't. After my mother died in February 1998 I started attending West Side on Sunday mornings. College Avenue had an early service at 8:00 a.m. so I could attend worship and Sunday School there and then make it to West Side for the morning worship at 10:15 a.m. Via the Internet I found out about a group within the SBC that is attempting to steer Southern Baptists back to their solid roots in Calvinism. In 1994 I purchased a book on Southern Baptist theology and learned that they were originally Calvinists when founded in 1845. I really like the Southern Baptist Founders Ministries(www.founders.org). And so I joined West Side in April 1999. I was also baptized because I wanted to profess my faith in Christ's finished work for me and to make it clear that I had broken with my past in the Church of Christ.

Now some in the Church of Christ think I left to be with Jo Lynn at West Side but that is not true. She never said a word in those five years about me changing churches, we simply attended separate churches during that time. She was probably as surprised as anyone when she realized what God was doing with my
life.

 

[Frogman]

I was raised in a very religious family. My grandparents are First Church of God, when my mother was at home they attended a Methodist congregation. In those days (they tell me) people just went whereever was closer.

I was born in 1969 and my dad announced a call to preach in 1970. He united with the First Church of God in Monticello, KY. Though he was raised and saved in the missionary Baptist church in Cooper KY. of Wayne Co. When he united with the First Church of God, my grandparents were already attending there, my mom's family.

Dad also is a mason and so the church refused to ordain him without his renouncing the Lodge. He refused and fell into a backslidden condition and stopped preaching (rightly so I believe).

We moved to Poteau OK. in 1972 and lived there through 1974, while here we became acquainted with some Cherokee Indians and began attending church with them, this was a beautiful experience.

In 1974 we returned to KY and for a while in Glasgow, where we attended a Free-Will Baptist congregation, soon dad's job moved us 35 miles east to Columbia, KY. Here we attended a Cumberland Presbyterian congregation and when I visited with my grandparents (along with my brothers and sisters) we went with them to the First Church of God. This went on from 1977-1980(1) at which time I was moving between the two above mentioned churches. I became active in the Cumberland Presbyterian church, teaching Sun. School and leading a group of similar age. I had begun to be impressed upon of my need to study the Bible during this time and I read constantly. During the summer months and on weekends sometimes I would sit all night with the Word of God. Many things perplexed me, though many things seemed to come easy to my understanding. The predominant question I remember having is that of eternal salvation. If it was eternal, then how could it be lost? This was predominantly the message I had heard through my life. The C. Presby. Church had a woman ordained minister and they leaned even toward these teachings towards works etc. to continue in salvation, something declared in the Bible as being eternal when given.

I studied and studied and about this time I began to feel I would someday preach. About July of 1982 my parents took us to a VBS at Cane Valley Baptist, at the time a church of the Green River Association of United Baptists. This is the first knowledge I had of the Baptists that I remember. I was saved during this week of BS and was later baptized into the body at Cane Valley.

The major problem I kept hearing re-opened in my family, always to my parents, was this issue of once in grace always in grace. I became determined even more to study it for myself. I was 13-14 yrs old at the time. Some time during all this I can remember hearing things about the 'hardshellers' etc. and others that were not favorable sounding. My mom would assure my grandmother and grandfather that we did attend this church but that we did not beleive once in grace always in grace.

The church was pastored by a young man, with no formal education, but who had the calling of God on him. Soon I began to feel the call also and I announced it everywhere but the church. My family discouraged me, primarily because of my dad's experience, I think. The congregation began to desire an 'educated' pastor and, IMO they blackballed the pastor, a vote was held and he was retained. Lies were told on him owing money at a local community groc. store, I went with my dad one Saturday to pay the debt for the preacher. The storeowner informed us he always paid cash for his purchases.

Ultimately members who had not been in attendance were called and strength was mustard against the young man and he was voted out. Once again, my dad fell away from attending church and still will not go.

Throughout this time I was still feeling the call to preach and still studying. I was discovering from the Bible the Doctrines of Grace etc. but I had not been in a place where these were strong and I feared I was putting my own interpretation on scripture...add the discouragement of my family against preaching and especially the unfavorable view of Baptists and you have a mixture that reinforced my decision to rebel against my calling. (Though this was not and is not excuse.)

All this continued throughout highschool, I attempted to be a 'regular' person, not one called to preach, but whenever my friends and I got together I always steered the conversation toward those eternal things or if the question came up everyone would come to me with the question. I was by no means a true witness to God, I still attempted to live the life of a 'teenager' and to reconcile my own beliefs with those I had 'always heard.' My family continued to discourage my announcing my call to preach.

In 1988 I graduated high school and met my wife the following fall. We had a short courtship during which time I attended church with her in a United Methodist Church. I also discussed my calling to preach and told her that before I died I would have to follow it. (My problem was that I had been conditioned to think I must first earn a certain degree of respect among men, and above all I must steer clear of the Baptists.) Though my own private studies confirmed to me the Sovereignty of God, I clung to the traditional teachings of my youth.

In 1995, after seven years of marriage (number of the day of God's rest), my wife requested we separate and I moved from our home. We were only separated for two weeks and were re-united. I worked hard at this, because I knew the truth of my calling and the need to avoid separation and possible divorce.

In Nov. 1995 I took a job as an HVAC/R apprentice technician and soon felt I had found my career. I easily learned the trade and by Sept. 1997 had logged enough experience to be eligible to test for my journeyman's license and EPA certification. I passed the test and worked until August of 1998 when I landed a job at the Housing Authority of Glasgow.

(where a brother had been previously employeed in 1995).

The second day of work I was teamed with him to repair a condensor coil on an outdoor unit. He was to show me around the projects and the shop etc and I was to repair the condensor and begin to teach him the trade. He was an apprentice.

At 8:00 am August 11, 1995 Monday morning, we each climbed into the shop van together, he on the drivers side and I on the passenger's. As soon as he shut the door he began to witness to me about Christ and I knew my days of running were up. We rejoiced that day and many days afterward during a lunch-time Bible study and he invited me to visit them at Grider Memorial Baptist.

The problem was we still lived in Columbia and I was driving everyday to my job. This changed in Feb. 1999 when we moved to Glasgow, we visited Grider until Easter when I was moved by the Spirit and gave my testimony, but I didn't ask for membership at this time. I noticed during communion we were not offered to partake, this was very different than where I had been going, even young children were permitted to take of it. At first this offended me, but my soul was rejoicing because of the Word of God I had been hearing preached and I resolved to study the matter myself to determine the Biblical truth. I found closed communion every bit Scriptural.

We continued until I became convicted of my need to join Grider. My wife resisted at first requesting me to wait until she could think about it. Though she had never been baptized, she had been saved and was a member of the United Methodist Church in which we were married and where I had the previous year announced my calling to preach, again to serious discouragement, I was told I must be a member of a Methodist Church for two years and must attend a Methodist College before being ordained. I disagreed with this on Biblical grounds and they looked at me as if I were J.R. Graves re-incarnate. (I just don't have the beard.)

I stood up to join Grider on July 4th 1999 and my wife followed. She by baptism because she had never received it before and I by baptism because I felt I had forsaken Cane Valley Baptist and could not recieve a letter from them. Also I am not sure they believe as Grider concerning the doctrines of Grace.

Either way we continued and I announced my call to preach on July 27 1999. This is how the Lord drawed me from the bondage I had imposed upon myself and from others and into the glorious liberty that is in Christ Jesus. Sorry for the length. I felt it was necessary to show the dealing of God in my life and the reason I believe Sovereign Grace shall stand in all eternity. (Especially liberating is knowing the same year my wife asked for our separation and we were in this affliction God was raising up a brother in a place where I was later to sojourn). To know these things causes such joy to rise up into my heart I cannot contain it, rightly did David say 'my cup runneth over.'

May God Bless you brethren in your walk and service to him.

Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Very nice, Brother Dallas. It was not too long at all. A very engaging testimony.

 

[The Archangel]

This is how I became the Reluctant Calvinist.

I grew-up fundamentalist (not of the "holy-roller" type) and then about 18 yrs. ago, my family (mom, dad, and me) joined a baptist church. As we became Southern Baptist, we, of course, learned the typical 1950's theology.

I've heard some people refer to that theology as "Whiskey Baptist" because they hold to one-fifth of the points.

Don't get me wrong...I loved, and still love, my pastor and my church.

However, when I got to KY, I gave a friend a ride home from church and we began discussing what "Calvinism" was. I had never heard of Calvinism to this point and I was totally ignorant.

As you might imagine I was quite repulsed by the whole TULIP thing, having never been taught about it.

I began to study....Sproul and some commentaries on Romans (side by side with the bible). And I was mostly convinced.

However, a friend gave me a tape of John Piper and that pretty much sent me over the edge. Not that the tape was particularly Calvinistic, however. No, it introduced me to who John Piper was and then I began to read "Desiring God" and "Future Grace."

Also, Grudem's "Systematic Theology" was extreemly helpful.

After that couple months of study, I began to call myself a 5-pointer. I guess it was sometime in the summer of 2001. The journey had only taken about 6 months.

Since then, however, I have seen who God is and how He works in a much more vivid way.

And I whole-heartedly agree with Piper about "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him." But, that is another discussion.

Thanks for the oppritunity to share this story. I have enjoyed reading yours as well.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[William C]

Seriously guys I want to respond to this.

I know what your refering to when you feel like that "light" turns on and you adopt those Calvinistic beliefs. You've got to understand I was a very staunch Calvinist for over 9 years, but I was raised in a typical quazi Arminian home where maybe 2 of the points were somewhat held (total depravity and unconditional election) and then the perserverance of the saints was the one big one that all the Baptist held to.

I read a book by John MacArthur and it blew me away. I'd never heard this stuff before and when you read John 6, Romans 9 and Eph. 1 for the first time with this view in mind it is quite convincing, especially for a rather young and uneducated Christian as I was. For several weeks I was confused by some of the normal questions like "why do we evangelize" and "that doesn't seem really fair," but as I continued to read book after book after book on the issue (mostly by those in support of Calvinism) I became very convinced and quite versed in all the right answers. I had all the questions answered in my mind and was set to take down any Arminian who was willing to go to battle and I did. I converted countless numbers of people to believe Calvinism. And I left a lot of bodies scattered along the way, but it was all in the name of truth, so I felt quite vindicated.

(I wouldn't have ever admitted it then, but I had a since of arrogance like I knew something other's didn't; however, I will never say that the doctrine itself is pride filling, it's not, it does humble you to think that God would choose you. It makes you think, what if He didn't? That scares you and makes you wonder, why me? I can't deny that is a humbling thought.)

One of the most convincing aspects of Calvinism was the ignorance of Arminians. All of them I encountered during 8 years of theological education were absolute morons! I would ask them honest questions about why they believe this or that or the other and they would blow me off with some stupid analogy or quirking saying. I couldn't ever find a living Arminian who knew scripture. This just convinced me all the more that I was right and those idoit Arminians were wrong. But, I was still not feeling challenged, I hadn't really ever heard a decent rebuttal to any of my Calvinistic arguments.

So, I started reading everything I could find. I must have read a least a thousand books mostly by old dead guys. The Patristic Fathers, ancient creeds, both from Eastern and Western Orthadoxy and on and on.

One day one of my friends, who was also a Calvinist (still is), started complaining to me that he hadn't ever been challenged to think by someone who disagrees with him theologically, I concured sharing with him the same things that I have just shared. He and I were always emailing messages back and forth and getting on various debate boards to take on those ignorant Arminians when I decided to play a little joke on him. I signed on under a fake name and pretended to be an Arminian. It was hilarious, you all should try it sometime, I would just start trying to find whatever arguement I could possibly find to baffle him or challenge him to go deeper. In doing so I found myself going deeper as well.

Soon I started worry myself because I was coming up with arguments that I wasn't sure how to answer myself. I would search the scriptures and my stack of commentaries to find the answers for my arguements and they never seemed to deal with the questions to my satisfaction. Even other Calvinists on the board gave "pat answers" and would avoid dealing with the difficult issues that I wanted so badly for them to answer--mostly because I wanted to know the answer myself.

Sometimes I would even debate myself on the board under two different names trying to defeat my own arguments. I became preplexed at how difficult it was to defend Calvinism in light of the scripture that I was so certain was chalk full of Calvinistic support.

The more I debated, the more I studied, the more I studied the more convinced I became that Calvinism wasn't all it seemed crack up to be; as much as I didn't want to admit that even to myself.

You know Glenn, you talk about the freedom etc and I referred to it like it was a light coming on when we come to accept the Calvinistic beliefs, but I can honestly say that I had much the same feeling when I came back to Arminianism. When reading scripture I saw man's responsiblity everwhere, just as when I came to Calvinism for the first time I was seeing God's sovereignty everywhere. It all just depends on the perspective you looking at it and what goal you have in reading it. When you go to the scripture to prove your point and win a debate you can find just about anything your mind wants to find. I know because that's what I've done, on both sides of this issue.

Who knows maybe if I switch back to debating Calvinism for a while, I convert back over. Naw! I can't do that until I can come up with some valid rebuttals to these arguments.

(Also, keep in mind that Jacobus Arminius and most of the first Arminians were Calvinists who converted to Arminianism, so we are not that much of a "puzzle" as you might think. History has a tendency to go in cycles, right now there is a resurgance of Calvinism so it is the norm is to see people converting from Arminianism to Calvinism. I think that is a growing trend largely due to most Christian's lack of theological education, especially concerning this issue. No one really knows what they believe about predestination or election, therefore it is very easy to be swayed by any teaching that has some convincing arguments behind it. I think once Calvinism come back more into the mainstream Arminians will become more educated on the issues and start a resurgance of their own, it's all one big cycle.)

 

[KenH]

Brother Bill,

I appreciate your post. However, you sorta sound like the surge in Calvinism is a result of ignorance and that once the ignorant become educated they'll become Arminians.

Fortunately, no one is saved by having all of his theological ducks in a row. It's just that some beliefs are more ducky than others.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
Fortunately, no one is saved by having all of his theological ducks in a row. It's just that some beliefs are more ducky than others.

Ha, that's good. Can I use that?

I appreciate your post. However, you sorta sound like the surge in Calvinism is a result of ignorance and that once the ignorant become educated they'll become Arminians.

Well, as of right know in my pilgrimmage of seeking truth that is the way I see it. So far in my life I've been a "whisky baptist" (I like that Archangel

), then a Calvinists, and then a doubtful Calvinists, then a Arminian with a lot of questions, then a quazi Arminian and who knows where my studies will take me next. This is one of the reasons that I often speak in terms of "couldn't be" or "what if this is what He meant." One thing I've learned through all of this is that I shouldn't ever be overly confident in my views because they could be changing tomorrow.

One of the biggest concerns I had as a Calvinist, and one of the things that still scares me about my Calvinistic tendencies is the question that I've brought up here on this board. What if we are wrong?

I know we have debated over this issue, but honestly that weights heavy on me. I converted many stupid "wisky baptists" into believing Calvinism over those 9 years, what if that is not right? What if I caused them to become hyper in their views and take their focus off evangelism, or caused them to split their church and cause disunity among believers costing valuable time and energy that should have been spent on making disciples. Again, this is just a "what if" argument. I recognize that, but man that just kills me to think that I could be responsible for someone not hearing the truth and believing. Honestly, that haunts me and in some ways makes me want to believe Calvinism is right so that I couldn't have messed anything up, but I can't be sure. Can any of us, really?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
but I can't be sure. Can any of us, really?

Brother Bill,

Isn't that where faith steps in?

Ken

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I read you spiritual journey and can see God's hand in your life. I personally believe that it was/is not sovereign grace that lead you from one event to another, but rather the Providence of God Who opened and closed doors in your life. We all experience this as brethren and it is, as you said, a great joy and faith builder to see the Lord moving in and on your life.

I will remember your Dad in prayer as the Spirit reminds me. Christian people are sometimes cruel and Pharisaic, meaning self-righteous. It is sad to me that those who believe that sovereign grace alone gets them to Heaven can become and remain self-righteous, something that they should never believe in their own lives. I did notice your Dad's love for the pastor by paying his bill. This is always a mark of a true Christian, that of love for other people, in spite of his being out of fellowship with the Lord. If your Dad is physically able maybe you should encourage him to open his own church in a fire hall. People would see that God will use anyone who faithfully preaches His truth. As far as God is concerned, your Dad's sins are forever removed from his life and personal history. They are blotted out! Done! Note Micah 7:19. Tell him I said, his past sins ' . . . have been cast into the depths of the sea.' Not even one of our nuclear submarines would recognize them on their radar scopes. Too bad, that the saints are found reminding brethren of their spiritual falls.

 

[Frogman]

Bro. Ray,

I must respectfully disagree. I see a true knowledge of Sovereign Grace and further the full knowledge of the work Christ has accomplished at the Cross to be the most humbling a man can possess. For those who do appear self-righteous it is perhaps due to the emphasis of one aspect or the other, while leaving off with the rest.

Note in Ch. 4 of I Kings vs. 27. Remember King Solomon is a type of Christ.

I agree with you concerning my dad's condition, but disagree with his opening a church, though I think if he were inclined he would agree with you. Sometimes we may note in Scripture that the ministry of some is short-lived and that God never meant a long, fruitful ministry from them. I think this is evident in Stephen's ministry. Once that which is fulfilled to which God has raised a man up, he must necessarily decrease. These are my feelings on this subject, which are different than the purpose of the post, thanks for your prayers nonetheless.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
but I can't be sure. Can any of us, really?

Brother Bill,

Isn't that where faith steps in?

</font>[/QUOTE]You would think wouldn't you

It's funny how a faith that comes from the same God leads two believing people down two different roads of belief.

 

[tyndale1946]

First of all I was raised since the age of seven in a Primitive Baptist Church... I'm now 57 and am a third generation Primitive Baptist... I was a deacons kid and had to sit through all the sermons and would rather have been somewhere else.

We don't have Sunday Schools or Bible Study or classes for the young as that has always been our way and practice... We have singing... Accapella... Prayer... And Preaching in that order and it has not changed in my church since it was founded in 1939... The building we reside in now was built in 1958 and I helped the brethren build it when I was 12.

Even though our church preached Sovereign Grace and we believe it like none on this board as our unorthodox views are often challenged by others I didn't believe it like I do now. I don't really consider myself a Calvinist but PBs are altered Calvinists... We take all the points of the TULIP but our interpretation of some point are different that the true Calvinist brethren... FYI
I may go into these points later on another thread but not at this time.

So here I am at the age of eighteen... Being raised since the age of seven... Standing next to my Dad... The deacons kid learning to lead song service... Inside the church I'm an angel but outside the church I'm a hellraiser. I felt if the Lord came right now there is only one place I'm going... And its not to sing with the angels

First of all I've not asked for a home in the church like my brother Howard did when he was fourteen and was baptised... Btw Howard left the church when he became an adult and hasn't been back since... He's now 55!... I've not asked to be a member of the church and have not been baptised... Besides church is for old people and although I was raised in the church I could not wait to get away from the church.

God does move in mysterious ways and dealt with me when I got away from the church... As soon as I graduated from high school I felt it was time to sew my wild oats... The Lord saw that's exactly what I did on the battlefields of Vietnam In a warzone many men and women have found the Lord... I did and wrote the church papers how much I missed dear old Zion and many wrote me back on how much they missed me... I made a vow to the Lord that if I got out of Vietnam... I was with the Marine Corp Tank Battalion I would join the church and be baptised... I left Vietnam without a scratch and joined the church at the age of 22 in 1968 and was baptised.

I started devouring Bible and reading the writings and sermons of some of our esteemed preachers... A lot of dead ones... Still at heart I was an Arminian and if I was to die tomorrow I would go to hell because I wasn't good enough. I kept equating God with past sins I know he couldn't forget that only I knew about... What if I killed someone in Vietnam... We never knew where our tank rounds went... Doesn't the Bible say THOU SHALT NOT KILL... If I killed them surely I MURDERED THEM... I was guilty of every commandment under the sun... I can't keep any of them I thought to myself... How can I belong to God if I can't keep his commandments?

I went to Calvanism kicking and screaming from Arminianism... I fought it all the way and questioned everything and every passage in the Bible... What about this... This can't be true... This contradicts that... There has got to be something I can do... I can't belong to him why do I doubt?... Day in and day out... Night in and night out burning the midnight oil... Wrestling as Jacob did with the angel of God... Bless me... Show me... Enlighten me... And he did in a doctrine of grace so beautiful the scales fell from my darkened eyes and the tears flowed freely.

I have been released from my Arminian bondage for almost twenty five years and only hope I can help my Arminian brethren from theirs... But I know the only one that can release them is God... But knowing of myself and my struggle if it is Gods will it will be done... Not for them to wear the label of Calvinist but to come to the truth... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

[tyndale1946]

Brother Dallas and Ken... Enjoyed both your testimonies... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

[William C]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
I went to Calvanism kicking and screaming from Arminianism... I fought it all the way and questioned everything and every passage in the Bible... What about this... This can't be true... This contradicts that... There has got to be something I can do... I can't belong to him why do I doubt?... Day in and day out... Night in and night out burning the midnight oil... Wrestling as Jacob did with the angel of God... Bless me... Show me... Enlighten me...

I appreciate you testimony, sincerely.

Glenn, my testimony of coming to the doctrines of Calvinism were very similar to yours right down to the tears. As a matter of fact, most Arminians that become Calvinist have this reaction to it. They fight it then finally given in and feel "free" or as if they have finally understood something that had always been a mystery to them.

But, where in scripture is this reaction to the doctrines of God's grace? There are no doubt "Arminians" in the first century, they are asking, "What must we do to be saved?" They have to be Arminians in their thinking to ask that, right? Were is fighting against these doctrines, their questioning, their struggling their tears?

Where does it say that a doctrine of God's grace may produce confusion in the life of believers?

Even Calvinist confirm that most believer start off Arminian because the scripture does lead them to think it was their choice, after all the sign on the front door to heaven does say, "whosoever will." It's not until we become more "mature" that we know what it says on the other side of the door. The other side of the door straightens out the mess the sign made on the front side causing all of this turmoil that you have testified to.

I'm sorry, I'm being sincere here, I just don't see that kind of reaction and that kind of doctrine taught in God's word. He is the author of peace, not confusion. His doctrines bring believers rest and comfort not turmoil.

Can you please explain how you justify these things?

Thanks and God bless.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
[qb] I went to Calvanism kicking and screaming from Arminianism... I fought it all the way and questioned everything and every passage in the Bible... What about this... This can't be true... This contradicts that... There has got to be something I can do... I can't belong to him why do I doubt?... Day in and day out... Night in and night out burning the midnight oil... Wrestling as Jacob did with the angel of God... Bless me... Show me... Enlighten me...

I appreciate you testimony, sincerely.

Glenn, my testimony of coming to the doctrines of Calvinism were very similar to yours right down to the tears. As a matter of fact, most Arminians that become Calvinist have this reaction to it. They fight it then finally given in and feel "free" or as if they have finally understood something that had always been a mystery to them.

I am not brother Glenn, but I will venture to answer you. I agree most people seem to come to God in tears and after a strong desire to "know" what salvation is. I think though that this is sometimes due to the individual circumstances. I only know my own heart so I can answer only from my own experience. As I said above I was saved during a week of VBS. Prior to this I was drawn to the Scripture and was deeply concerned with the things of God. I studied constantly, to the point my mom told me I was driving religion in the ground. In reality I had no problem with religion, my problem was in the different messages that were heard in religion, thus your 'confusion' as it is. I questioned my parents, grandparents and whoever I could. I could answer all the questions in Sunday School etc. Still I did not have the peace of God that was spoken of in Scripture. Then we attended the week of VBS. This week was different than any other BS I had been involved in, where students attended classes, not unlike Sun. School and made a craft, at the end of each night gathered to pray maybe sing a few songs and we went home, all culminating in a 'program' of entertainment to parade to the parents the wonderful job of learning and teaching their children had experienced in the things of God. No, this week was different, after the classes the preacher did not lead us in songs, we did do the craft things, but what was different is that the preacher preached the Gospel each night. Not a night passed without our hearing the Gospel preached. I was affected the first night. For the first time the preaching came to me and not just to a congregation. Being young and not wanting the 'old' people to think I had done something wrong I managed to 'ignore' the messages. After all I was not an adulterer, drunkard, nor a great sinner. I already knew about Jesus, why was I having such feelings of conviction? I continued throughout the week just as I begun it. I resolved to deal with God in private through prayer and study. Each day I would read and pray and each night the preaching would renew my conviction. Until one night I found myself repenting and the coviction left me. The confusion left me, in fact, all those people I thought would consider me a sinner or having done something dastardly weren't even noticeable all that was present was me and the Spirit of God and my spirit was regenerated, my knowledge was awakened to the reconciliation Christ had worked. I still had the questions to deal with because I was hearing them from those around me, but I wasn't reading those questions into the word of God. All I found there was peace, the confusion came when I tried to reconcile my beliefs with what others were saying and all this with Scripture.

But, where in scripture is this reaction to the doctrines of God's grace? There are no doubt "Arminians" in the first century, they are asking, "What must we do to be saved?" They have to be Arminians in their thinking to ask that, right? Were is fighting against these doctrines, their questioning, their struggling their tears?

Notice Acts 2.37 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

These men did ask this question, but they did not prior to their conviction...note: 'they were pricked in their heart,...' It is not as if these men actually expected, nor did Peter that it was to be their choice, the pricking of their hearts overshadowed the whole ordeal, here is the leading of the Holy Ghost in the regeneration.

Where does it say that a doctrine of God's grace may produce confusion in the life of believers?

Even Calvinist confirm that most believer start off Arminian because the scripture does lead them to think it was their choice, after all the sign on the front door to heaven does say, "whosoever will." It's not until we become more "mature" that we know what it says on the other side of the door. The other side of the door straightens out the mess the sign made on the front side causing all of this turmoil that you have testified to.

These doctrine only produce confusion when we begin to listen to men concerning these things (including our own doubtful selves), but they are not confusing when we hear only the Holy Spirit.

That sign on the door of heaven is a cute analogy, but it is speculations such as that which cause the confusion. (Just felt like that needed to be said). No-one knows what sign is on the door (gate) of heaven. Further, those who are saved start off thinking they are arminian, that they made a choice and this thought is not unscriptural. According to Psalms 110.3 the saved are made willing in the day of His power. This is what occurs, IMO, the will of man is broken, in accordance with Isaiah 55 "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without mony and without price." This scripture used to give me fits until I purchased a concordance and studied the meaning of the word buy. Many people, as I did, read this scripture and envision a trip to the corner market to purchase for themselves a gallon of milk. You go to the store, get the milk and reach into your own back pocket and pull out the payment for the item purchased, then you spend the rest of your life trying to prove you did this of your own will, but that nothing involved in it constitutes work, or exertion of your own energy to accomplish, herein lies the confusion. The word translated "buy" from Hebrew ("shabar") means to be broken, broken hearted, to break, and is translated at least one time "to be brought to the birth" (all these translations depend on the situation and context, usage of the word in the sentence, as is in accordance to original Hebrew grammar, but the idea is established that this word is not the traditional 'American' usage of "buy" constituting our free system of capitalism, I think this association, though often made unconsciously is powerful in the minds of our people and even from behind the sacred desk) consider the strength of that word next time you read the words of Jesus at John 3. If you are brought to the birth, then do you accomplish it under your own energy? The idea as I understand it in the Hebrew is that a person goes into the market place, the same place where we are redeemed, so we are in the market place, from here the person is exposed to all life has to offer and eventually is broken searching for the fulfillment which is Christ. Further the person hears the Gospel and believes and then, having no more to 'spend' cry out in repentance for mercy. I can't find the confusion anywhere which my family still lives under whereby they chide me for teaching people they have eternal life etc. when they see obviously that men may choose to walk away from God, but that He doesn't walk away from them, see the inherent confusion in this statement? Where is the logic, the power of reasoning is clouded not by the Word of God, but by the fears and weakness of man. There is no confusion brother, apart from what our prideful hearts create, in this system of Sovereign Grace.

I'm sorry, I'm being sincere here, I just don't see that kind of reaction and that kind of doctrine taught in God's word. He is the author of peace, not confusion. His doctrines bring believers rest and comfort not turmoil.

I believe your sincerety. But this reaction is something that occurs in men and women, each having a very different personality. One may cry long and hard, while others may shout and laugh, yet others may not utter either but silently be brought to their birth. I did not cry, nor shout, and for a time satan used this to create doubts in my own salvation. This salvation, from beginning to end, is the work of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, and "it is marvellous" in our eyes."

Can you please explain how you justify these things?

Thanks and God bless.

As I said to start with, I am not brother Glenn, but this would be my answer were you to pose it to me.

May God Richly Bless you brother.

Bro. Dallas

 

[rufus]

Brothers, enjoyed your testimonies.

May I add mine:

I was raised in a Missionary Baptist Church that stressed God's grace and man's faith. The pastors I had never tried to ease the tension existing between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. The explained it as two rails of a train track; both were needed for the train to go anywhere.

I surrendered to preach at 16 years of age. I loved to read and devoured everything I could get my hands on. By the time I graduated from College, I had a good grasp on the issues of election from a Biblical perspective. I enjoyed my Masters Degree work in Theology, too.

However, it was until I had to write a large thesis for my Doctor of Theology that I came to appreciate the "grace of God" theology. During my study, such peace came over me as I discovered God's love and God's gift to me. Passages in John, Romans, Thessalonians and other places began to make sense to me, in light of the distinctions between "grace" and "faith."

The one doctrine that has been dear to my soul is the "Security of the Believer" that resulted from my advanced studies.

While I don't necessarily like the term "Calvinism" because of negative connotions, I consider myself more of a Calvinist than an Arminian. I'd really rather be called a Paulician.

rufus

 

[romanbear]

Hi Tyndale;
I'm curios why you seem to hate Arminians so much. Is it because down inside you want to believe in free will, but can't leave your bondage to Calvinism? It's funny you claim we are in bondage when it is Arminians who have free will. You see Bondage is when you have no choice. Which is what Calvinism is, no choice, no how. It's Calvinism that makes God out to be a tyrant forcing all creation to love him. Wake up and smell the coffee Tyndale. It is Calvinist who are in bondage to there own logic. There is no love in being forced. Tell me does your wife love you because you made her to. Of course not, and if she is like most ladies, you wouldn't want to try to force her to do anything.

Calvinism appeals to those who are unwilling to make decisions on there own. There afraid that if there the ones who make the decisions they won't have anyone to blame but them selves. According to your version of predestination. Those who have to endure Hell for eternity are there because it's for Gods good pleasure. Making Him in to a Sadist, one who enjoys the pain of others.

Even Augustine believed in free will. Calvinism does not line up with scripture. It has been proven false you just don't want to open your eyes and see it. Again afraid to make decisions on your own.

Romanbear

 

[tyndale1946]

Rufus... A Paulican?... Isn't that the consummate story of Saul of Tarsus who was released from bondage on the road to Damascus?... He too was pricked in the heart... What about those who are cut to the heart... There is a difference!... Any comments?... Brother Glen

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Rufus... A Paulican?... Isn't that the consummate story of Saul of Tarsus who was released from bondage on the road to Damascus?... He too was pricked in the heart... What about those who are cut to the heart... There is a difference!... Any comments?... Brother Glen

This is a wonderful thought and worthy of discussion brother. Unfortunately I don't have time to delve into it. I must go to my classes and then to work and will return around 8:00pm tonight, (CT), though the day is going to be full of rejoicing. The blessing I am receiving in considering the Grace you have brought up is beautiful, in fact I have no words to utter which can tell the feelings of joy that are swelling into my heart at this time.

I see a great day ahead, God Bless and consider this: "And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

O! what blessings are found in the pool of God's Grace.

Praise God! Praise God!
Amen.

Bro. Dallas