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The Dake Reference Bible and the Trinity

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Ron Arndt, Jan 23, 2006.

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  1. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Marcia

    Here are some extra notes for you from the Dake reference bible on John 4:24.

    Notes For Verse 24

    [God is a Spirit] God is a Spirit Being, not the sun, moon, stars; nor an image of wood, stone, or metal; and not beast or man. He is not the air, wind, universal mind, love or some impersonal quality.

    He is a person with a personal spirit body, a personal soul, and a personal spirit, like that of angels, and like that of man except His body is of spirit substance instead of flesh and bones (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3). He has a personal spirit body (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19); shape (Jn. 5:37); form (Php. 2:5-7); image and likeness of a man (Gen. 1:26; 9:6; Ezek. 1:26-28; 1Cor. 11:7; Jas. 3:9). He has physical parts such as, back parts (Ex. 33:23), heart (Gen. 6:6; 8:21), hands and fingers (Ps. 8:3-6; Heb. 1:10; Rev. 5:1-7), mouth (Num. 12:8), lips and tongue (Isa. 30:27), feet (Ezek. 1:27; Ex. 24:10), eyes (Ps. 11:4; 18:24; 33:18), ears (Ps. 18:6), hair, head, face, arms (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; Rev. 5:1-7; 22:4-6), loins (Ezek. 1:26-28; 8:1-4), and other physical parts. He has bodily presence (Gen. 3:8; 18:1-22) and goes from place to place in a body like all other persons (Gen. 3:8; 11:5; 18:1-5,22,33; 19:24; 32:24-32; 35:13; Zech. 14:5; Dan. 7:9-14; Tit. 2:13). He has a voice (Ps. 29; Rev. 10:3-4); breath (Gen. 2:7); and countenance (Ps. 11:7). He wears clothes (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19); eats (Gen. 18:1-8; Ex. 24:11); rests (Gen. 2:1-4; Heb. 4:4); dwells in a mansion and in a city located on a material planet called Heaven (Jn. 14:1-3; Heb. 11:10-16; 13:14; Rev. 21); sits on a throne (Isa. 6; Dan. 7:9-14; Rev. 4:1-5; 22:3-6); walks (Gen. 3:8; 18:1-8,22,33); rides (Ps. 18:10; 68:17; 104:3; Ezek. 1); and engages in other activities.

    He has a personal soul with feelings of grief (Gen. 6:6), anger (1Ki. 11:9), repentance (Gen. 6:6), jealousy (Ex. 20:5), hate (Pr. 6:16), love (Jn. 3:16), pity (Ps. 103:13), fellowship (1Jn. 1:1-7), pleasure and delight (Ps. 147:10), and other soul passions like other beings (Gal. 5:22-23).

    He has a personal spirit (Ps. 143:10; Isa. 30:1) with mind (Rom. 11:34), intelligence (Gen. 1:26; Rom. 11:33), will (Rom. 8:27; 9:19), power (Eph. 1:19; 3:7,20; Heb. 1:3), truth (Ps. 91:4), faith and hope (Rom. 12:3; 1Cor. 13:13), righteousness (Ps. 45:4), faithfulness (1Cor. 10:13), knowledge and wisdom (Isa. 11:2; 1Tim. 1:17), reason (Isa. 1:18), discernment (Heb. 4:12), immutability (Heb. 6:17), and many other attributes, powers, and spirit faculties.

    He has been seen physically many times (Gen. 18; 32:24-30; Ex. 24:9-11; Josh. 5:13-15; Isa. 6; Dan. 7:9-13; Ezek. 1; Acts 7:56-59; Rev. 4-5), and can be understood by the things that are made. Man is the visible image and likeness making the invisible God clearly seen as in Rom. 1:20. See Invisibility and Anthropomorphism.
    —Dake's Study Notes
     
    #41 Ron Arndt, Feb 2, 2006
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    What Stephen saw was a vision -- we don't know excatly how God appeared in that vision, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God signifies his power. This does not mean God has a physical or bodily appearance (though I am not saying He does not have some kind of form -- but it is not physical or bodily in the sense Dake states it).

    As far as the ghost thing goes, there is no such thing. A spirit being, according to the Bible, is a disembodied being such as the angels (both good and bad). They are called spirits in Hebrews. But angels did at time take on human forms; this does not mean, however, that angels have bodies. As far as we know, only man has flesh.

    When the Lord visited Abraham, some believe that was a Theophany and some believe it was a Christophany, but if a Theophany, it means that God was appearing in human form. This in no way means that God has a physical body or bodily form as part of his nature.

    As far as Moses seeing God's "back parts" this a term that makes it understandable that Moses could not see God's literal face but only saw some image that he understood as God. It does not mean God has a bodily form as Dake says. Jesus said that no man has seen God (Jn 1.18; Jn 6.46).
     
    #42 Marcia, Feb 2, 2006
  3. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Ron, God is invisible, according to scripture.
    The accounts of Moses, Stephen, etc. who saw a vision of God or some kind of appearance of God must be interpreted, imo, as accounts of God revealing Himself in some way to them so that they knew it was God. But since the Bible says God is invisible and Jesus said no man has seen God, then we must conclude that these appearances to Moses and Stephen have nothing to do with God having some kind of bodily form or "back sides."
     
    #43 Marcia, Feb 2, 2006
  4. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Marcia

    1.In Acts 7:55-56 the bible says Stephen gazed into heaven and saw both God and Jesus standing beside the Father. NOTHING IS SAID IN THESE VERSES ABOUT ANY VISION

    2.The bible clearly says in Exodus 33:23 that God would allow Moses to SEE his back parts, but not his face. It was not just an image of something, but the very back parts of God was what God allowed Moses to see. And also God told Moses he indeed has a face, but Moses was not allowed to look upon it. How much more literal can one get?

    3.Of course angels are ministering spirits, but these angels also have form and bodies. They do allow themselves to be revealed when necessary. A good example, is when the two angels visited Lot in Sodom. These SAME two angels ate with Moses and God in the tent at Mamre.Gen 18:1-5.

    4.You say Moses and Stephen saw God in a vision and yet the word of God does NOT say any such thing. Both Moses and Stephen beheld God with their very eyes or else the bible does not mean what it says.

    5.It is true that God is naturally invisible to the human eye, but if he so wills, as he has done so in the past, he can and has revealed himself to certain men. Examples were Adam and Eve, Moses,Jacob,Daniel, Stephen and John the Apostle.All saw God in a body, clothed, seated on a throne, sometimes in heaven, sometimes on the earth and talking with them. This is what the bible reveals.Will you believe your own bible?
     
    #44 Ron Arndt, Feb 2, 2006
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are correct!
     
    #45 OldRegular, Feb 3, 2006
  6. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    OldRegular and Marcia

    Does your bible say that God allowed Moses to see his backparts or not? Ex 33:23. And if the Lord did allow Moses to see his backparts, was Moses not seeing God's form or body? Please answer the question.
     
    #46 Ron Arndt, Feb 3, 2006
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Ron, how do you views line up with Dake's statements that God has bodily form? What you are saying is that God has appeared in some kind of form to some people, but this does not at all mean He is in a bodily form at all times.

    I'm so surprised that no one else, aside from Old Regular, has commented on this.

    It's a Mormon view that God has a body.

    How about Dake's statement that God dwells on a material planet called Heaven?
     
    #47 Marcia, Feb 6, 2006
  8. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Marcia

    I will share something with you ok. Many, many years ago I had an out of the body experience. I was taken to heaven. It was incredible to say the least. I was IN the very city itself and spoke with Jesus. His gaze was quite penetrating. I saw children playing everywhere, laughing and running with glee. The sky was golden and not blue and there were birds, beautiful flowers and a serenity filled the air. I asked Jesus where is the Father. He told me the Father RESIDES in the temple and he pointed to it.

    All the structures in the Holy city are a glistening white and sort of give off a light of their own. So Jesus helped me to just where the father resided. It was a massive temple, which very much appeared like the mosque "dome" in modern day Israel, but way bigger.

    So why am I telling you this? Because heaven is a REAL PLACE. With real beings WITH BODIES, animals, flowers, buildings and water. It is like Dake says a planet or an orb.

    Yes, I believe the Father has a body, but not a HUMAN body, but a heavenly body, suited for the heavens. He resides IN heaven and has a throne. The temple he resides in is the most Holy place. Jesus enters in there to make intercession for us. I believe maybe part of your confusion is not understanding that even though the Father and the Son have bodies, they are still omni present, BY THEIR SPIRIT. Their spirit or presence radiates everywhere, in a way I personally don't understand.

    The Mormon view is DIFFERENT from what Dake believes. They believe God the Father has a human body, as does the Son. But such is not the case. God the Father NEVER had a human body, but a SPIRITUAL body, fully divine and with form. We are created IN HIS IMAGE. But not in his NATURE. He has form and so do we.

    Jesus is the ONLY one who has a glorified human body. All things in the universe have a body. Whether animate or inanimate. Stars are bodies. Planets are bodies and so are the things on earth. They have substance and form. There are terrestrial(earthly) bodies and heavenly bodies(stars, planets, God the Father,angels and the saints who are clothed in heaven). Paul explained all this in I Cor chapter 15.
     
    #48 Ron Arndt, Feb 6, 2006
  9. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Why were you allowed to speak about what you saw and Paul wasn't? I find that very strange.

    And I'm going to have stick with the Bible, not any man's vision/experience, no matter how real it was to that person.

    Look at these statements about God by Dake:
    If God "goes from place to place in a body like all other persons" this means he is in a finite body and is not omnipresent. Note that Dake says "like all other persons." He is saying that God is a person by using the word "other."

    God wears clothes? And lives on a "material" planet? You really agree with this? Dake is doing nothing more than making God in man's image.
     
    #49 Marcia, Feb 6, 2006
  10. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Marcia

    There have been quite a few people who have had NDE and lived to tell about it. Some not so memorable as mine.

    You state you are going to stick with the bible? And yet I've shown you clearly from scripture where God the Father indeed has a form and was seen and WILL be seen in the eternal state.Ex,33:23, Rev 22:4.

    You simply do not understand that heaven is a reality or another plane of existence, beyond this one. Because you are so conditioned to this physical world, as most of us are, because we were born into it and live our full lives in it, you are convinced nothing can exist outside of space and time.

    But this certainly is not the case. Paul was caught up to the third heaven which lies beyond the 2nd heaven, which is the physical universe of time and space. As I previously posted both the heavenly world and this physical world have REAL beings within them, but of a different nature. The sun which is a star is real, just as you are, but different in nature. But both you and the sun have a body nevertheless. There are heavenly bodies, as well as earthly bodies. But both you and the sun are bodies.

    In the same sense, beings of the higher order in heaven, be it angels, God the Father, the Son of God, the saints, the guardians, the beasts ALL have bodies, but NOT OF THIS plane or nature. Do you understand this so far? The occupants of heaven are not subject to space and time as we are. Angels for example can travel great distances by a matter of will. They also have great power according to the Father's direction and wish.

    They will guide you when you die into the passage that leads from this world to heaven as we call it. All things will be explained to you then. But you must be guided by your angels and you will indeed see angels do have bodies, as do all in the Father's kingdom. Shalom.
     
    #50 Ron Arndt, Feb 6, 2006
  11. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Ron, I had out of body experiences before I was a believer, so don't tell me I'm conditioned to this physical reality. I used to believe this reality was an illusion. I also had a spirit guide and saw spiritual entities in my room (which I am now sure were demons but then I did not believe in demons). I saw supposed dead people and talked to them. I did past life regressions.

    The 3rd heaven was considered to be where God dwellt. I just don't believe God took you to heaven and lets you talk about it but does not let Paul talk about it. Sorry.

    I think you are confusing the word "body" with the term heavenly bodies. Heavenly bodies does not have anything to do with a body -- it's just a term to use for an object in space such as a star or planet, comet, etc.

    The Bible does not say God has any kind of body. Yes, He took on form (such as the pillar of fire) but this does not mean it's his permanent form. The descriptions you referred to are metaphorical, poetic, or anthropomorphisms. Now, this is not just me saying this but my professors at seminary, my pastors, leading commentators, etc. But I'm supposed to think you are right and all these other people are wrong. I am just not going to do that.
     
    #51 Marcia, Feb 6, 2006
  12. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Marcia

    If you feel that convinced then no matter what more I present to you, you won't change your mind. But I will say one last thing. Don't place so much faith in professors and bible commentators as guiding you. These are only men with their own interpretation of scripture and many are just plain wrong.Shalom
     
    #52 Ron Arndt, Feb 6, 2006
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Ron, I am not placing faith in professors and commentators but in God's word. I think Dake is way off in his statements and reduces God to a manlike being.

    God does not move in any kind of body from place to place -- such a statment is a serious attack on the nature of God and denies His omnipresence. God does not reside in any one place -- if I had time, I could post the verses for you but I have to go. God may manifest in specific ways for His reasons, but He does not reside in a body that causes him to move from place to place as finite creatures do.

    While I reject your defense of Dake, I very much appreciate your cordial and civil tone and discussion.
     
    #53 Marcia, Feb 7, 2006
  14. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt New Member

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    Marcia

    What was Moses allowed to see? Ex 33:23.Please answer the question as to what the word of God says please.
     
    #54 Ron Arndt, Feb 7, 2006
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Ron, we read the bible with good hermeneutics. What Moses saw is described in anthropomorphisms. There are passages that speak of God having wings as well; this does not mean he has wings. If you are not familiar with this, please look it up. The passage with Moses must be seen in light of other passages that tell us about God, including Jesus' words that no man has seen God. Scripture must be compared with scripture, so we know from scripture that 1) God is invisible 2)God is omnipresent and does not move from place to place 3)No man has seen God.

    God is not composed of "parts" - he is simple being ('simple' not meaning simple in the sense of lack of intelligence or knowledge) who cannot be divided up, and is spirit.

    We also have Jesus' word that no man has seen God (said in 2 places in John which I referenced on p. 3). Moses saw as much of God as man could see and live, which was probably more seeing part of the glory of God; hence, this is described as God's "back parts" because no man could see God in actuality and live.
     
    #55 Marcia, Feb 12, 2006
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