For those who want to know the Free Grace view of calvinism / arminianism...

Webdog wrote:
For all of the cries by the calvinist's of "you do not know what we really believe", your comment proves likewise. What is truly "pathetic" is that a person's justification or judging thereof can depend on works."

The last sentence has exactly nailed this, and exactly nails where 'Arminianism', and 'Calvinism', are, in fact, identical. The final analysis is that one is really saved by something other than grace through faith! The protestations by any are meaningless when one can and does say because your works or lifestyle, or whatever, do not live up to MY understanding of what it should be, you obviously have never 'really' been saved, as per 'Calvinism', or you were saved, but you have obviously lost it, as per 'Arminianism'? What is the quantitative difference? What difference does it make in the final analysis if I travel to, say Atlanta, from KY whether I take the route of US 27 (Ok, I'm a 'road fan') south to Cahttnooga, and pick up I-75 south, or take I-75 all the way from Central KY, when my destination is Atlanta, and I get there via both routes? Are there 'brownie points' awarded for taking one route over the other? That is the qualitative difference, I spoke of earlier. The 'webdog' has just done bit the mailman!
In His grace,
Ed

[ February 09, 2006, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Ed, I noticed in your favorite verses, you had Eph. 2:8-9 - some of my favorites, too. By the way, what does verse 10 say the result of saving faith is?

 

Actually, I don't know. Perhaps you can tell me. But I'll try, anyhow. I don't believe that "saving faith", per se, is mentioned in the verse. Let's see if I can exegete this from memory, a bit, bein' as I don't have my Bible real handy.
For we are made new in Christ to do good works, as God has determined we shall walk in them? Or something like that?
Ed

 

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

Thanks for the quote: Is my 'exegesis' right?
Ed

 

I certainly agree with you, Ed Sutton.

As I see it then, we are created new so that we can do good works......this will not always mean that good works will suddenly become easy for us. I mean sometimes people talk as if when you become saved the good works just suddenly naturally flood out of you. If that were so, than why do we still have to be commanded to act like we are children of God and not children of the world?

Good works are what we were newly created to be able to perform. We still have to work at doing them though.

 

Pot: "Yer black!"

Kettle: "No, yer black!"

Skillet: "No, yer BOTH blacker 'n me!!"

Ed: "Have I missed anything so far?"

 

webdog,

So then, you don't believe a person has to repent in order to be saved?

consider God's Word:

"and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47, ESV)

Acts says this:

"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”" (Acts 16:31, ESV)

but then says this:

"testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:21, ESV)

Looks like repentance must accompany faith...

"“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:6-7, ESV)

"and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” " (Mark 1:15, ESV)

Jesus said this very clearly:

"and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3, ESV)

webdog, are you going to disagree with Jesus Christ on this?

 

Ed, I used the term "saving faith" as a contrast from "dead faith" as described in James 2. There is such a thing as dead faith, correct? And James teaches us that dead faith does not save.

Our works do not contribute to our justification, they are the result of our justification.

 

Isn't Free Grace an oxymoron? I thought that the Sovereign Grace of God was purchased by the blood of the God-man, Jesus Christ.

 

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If grace isn't free; grace isn't grace.
Grace is the free unmerited favor of God.

 

This is not what dead faith means in context. The faith that is "dead" is being likened to a car that is "dead". It still exists, but is not "working". The phrase "dead" does not mean non existent. When we die, we do not become non existent, likewise, faith without works is "dead"...meaning not an active faith. </font>[/QUOTE]James 2:14 says:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

What is the answer to second rhetorical question? The answer is "no", of course. It tells us that there is such a thing as dead faith, and it does not save us.

Further, why does he go on to talk about demons believing facts about God? Did the demons once have faith but now their faith is merely "inactive" - as you put it? By your reasoning, the demons are actually saved, but their faith is merely inactive!

Yours is a horrifying intepretation of James 2.

 

test post

 

repentance isn't a work, anyway.

Oh, and Andy, just to be fair, I don't think we can compare any part of salvation to anything that we read about angels/demons. They are not part of redemption, while we are. The same things do not apply for us as they do for them.

 

O.k., and those with dead faith are unredeemed, as well.

 

ok Andy,

but what does that mean? Do you think that a person can be trusting in Christ as their Saviour and believing what the Bible says, and still be unsaved?

After all, there are moments when our own faith wavers. What if we someday have doubts? Does that automatically mean that we are not actually saved?

 

No, 'Free grace' is not an oxymoron, but it is redundant, and is not found in Scripture. (Free gift is likewise redundant and not found, save in the addition of the word 'free' by some translations where it is entirely unneeded.) Since grace is, at least in the NT (Don't read Hebrew, therefore do not know from whence any words translated into the LXX may have come), from the Gk. word " χαρ'ις " or 'charis' in English transliteration, the root word of 'charisma' which means good-will, or favor, and carries with it the idea that the kindness bestows on one that which he has not deserved (All this in summary in Thayer), any mention of free is redundant. (FTR, you will not even find the word 'sovereign' anywhere in Scripture, so 'Sovereign Grace' is a theological construct, not a Biblical term.) Actually, according to Eph. 1:7, the redemption through his blood, (and) the forgiveness of sins is ACCORDING TO the riches of His grace, and not the other way around, in answer to the question you asked.
In His grace,
Ed