Scriptural training and correction or violence?

I believe you are thinking of Michael Fay who was caned in Singapore in 1994.

 

I see nowhere in the Word of God where parents were to give their children time-outs.

I see nowhere where the scripture tells you to hold them to correct them.

I do however see where the rod is to put stripes on the back.

I thank God for the stripes I received as a child. I would have been much worse a person than I ever was had there been no biblical correction.

As I said before, stripes are different than bruises. Stripes are superficial, bruises are deep. Did you know you can bruise a child even when just holding them when they are being rebellious?

 

In the case of Michael Fay, I would say, the word of God says 'a rod for a fool's back'. If Michael Fay did a foolish act, the rod was appropriate.

 

I guess I was wrong. I thought Jesus had taught us a better way to deal with people and with our kids.

Training and discipline to me is showing living proof that Jesus lives in me. Not by a spank, but with firmness, teaching, love, example. How often don't we say to our kids - it makes Jesus sad when you do this or that. With the Holy Spirit's direction, you can train up a child in the way they should go and they will not depart from it - by example and with direction.

A new believer ["child"] in Christ is not spanked into submission. The Lord is gentle and guides with love. When we are rebellious and disobedient, yes, God will chastise, but it is perfect according to His will - as we mature in Him.

I believe there is a loving and spiritual way to teach children. I watch my soninlaw and daughter do this daily with their six kids - 3 of which are foster kids that will soon be adopted, as God wills. They don't have to spank to show that they disapprove or that a child has been disobedient. Structure, love, instruction, firmness, consistency, good eye contact with discussion, timeouts [not "imprisonment" - give me a break ] are working wonderfully. The kids understand when and why they have done wrong and are treated with love and respect. Respect and love given, is given in return.

If I may be direct - you want to quote Prov as "proof" that a child should be spanked, but you are forgetting we are under a new covenant and we HAVE to look at the OT with a different filter. We don't keep Mosaic Law to the letter any more, because of Jesus. I believe that applies to "spare the rod/spoil the child" doctrine as well. Spanking, in my opinion does more damage than good, and will feed rebellion, not cure it - as I have witnessed time and again.

In today's society, spanking is viewed as abuse, whether you agree to it or not. It is also against the law in many states, including mine. If you choose to physically discipline you cannot foster or adopt. It seems to me that society, in this case, is not defying God, but God, through it, showing us that we need to re-examine our position. My opinion

 

I don't remember the full incident. As another poster noted, you're referring to the one in Singapore most likely.
I remember agreeing with that. No, I do not believe it was inappropriate. I don't believe that it would have been inappropriate for a teenager either.
It is not archaic or barbaric, and we'd probably have a lot less crime if this was done in the U.S.A., or at least the chain gangs were still in force.
Physical pain/labor as a punishment for certain crimes is a VERY strong detterant.
I'd never say it was appropriate for a child who does typical childlike things and must be taught/trained more appropriate ways of behaving/handling situations.

From those that do believe in beating children, I still would like to know what they do that warrants being beaten to help save their souls.

 

Although Abraham Maslow the psychologist was not a Christian, I feel that he hit upon something with his "hierarchy of needs" model.

If someone morally, sociologically, and emotionally does not function upon a high level (such as esteem, or his "self-actualization"), then reinforcing or changing behaviors that are detrimental must be acheived by appealing to a need at which that person operates (i.e., physical/physiological).

I am guarded as to how I spank, and for what. I use something that will not bruise or damage my child. I "test" the paddle I use on my own skin, to make sure I'm not injuring. I do not spank for accidents or irresponsibility, but rather for willful defiance. I spank hard enough to sting, but no more. I explain before and after the why of the incident, and its punishment. And the older the kid, the more I look for alternate means of accomplishing the same thing (e.g., I'm not going to spank a teenage kid of mine).

Frankly, it offends me for others to group a spanking as I have described it with "beating," (in our 21st-century understanding of the word), a behavior I would abhor personally and would turn someone in for doing.

BTW, eloidalmanutha, I don't think spanking is illegal in Michigan, except in schools and foster settings...I believe it's OK as a private parent...correct me if I'm wrong.

 

rbell wrote:
BTW, eloidalmanutha, I don't think spanking is illegal in Michigan, except in schools and foster settings...I believe it's OK as a private parent...correct me if I'm wrong.


eloidalmanutha:
we were told by our fost/adopt agency that it is illegal in Michigan, and I know in the schools it is illegal for sure. I know that protective services will get involved in any spanking report to their agency and I have known parents to lose their children upon reported investigations of spanking in public or private. Is there a law on the books for "private spanking"? - probably not, but if the state agencies can prosecute, then I would say it's "illegal".

 

There is a law for spanking in every state. Acts 5:39 '...We ought to obey God rather than man'.

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

 

have at it - it will be interesting to hear your perspective from behind the walls when your kids are a ward of the state because you got convicted for child abuse.

 

ever hear of separation of church and state? I have seen many a court battle won because one was standing on the Word of God.

So many today cede to the governing laws of this land, and well they should. But when the laws of this land impose upon the doctrines and laws set forth in God's Word, we are told to obey God rather than man. God says withhold not the rod of correction, man says don't spank your child. My pastor's son-in-law was arrested for spanking his child and all charges were dropped once the son-in-law showed scripture to the judge. One need not fear the government because of religious practice if it lines up with and is in accordance to God's Word.

 

so then, in your opinion, when God commands that we take care of orphans - how do you separate church and state when in order to fost or adopt you are required to sign a statement saying that you will not spank, hit, or physically discipline? Do you believe that we should then leave these children in the care of unbelievers because of the no-spank clause? or refuse to send money to agencies that "go against God's Word"?

 

God's Word says we are to obey Him rather than man. By signing a paper promising never to spank a child in your care, you are defying God's Holy Word.

 

I am curious why no one has addressed the issue of NT covenant versus the discipline issue. Do you find that my observation merits nothing? Or that it is an uncomfortable question that cannot be examined for fear of being wrong?

We have the indwelt Spirit - I am amazed that so few understand the law of love as taught by Jesus, versus the OT law of severity. We no longer stone. Perhaps we should re-institute that to be scripturally correct.

 

and by not taking the orphans in, you would be defying God's Word.

 

let me get real here, because I think you are missing something important. if you take in a child that has been physically and sexually abused [about 95%] just how are you going to defuse the situation by spanking a child who has already been terrorized and traumatized? how does spanking in this case show the love of God, or mercy or compassion.

when the prostitute was thrown in front of Jesus, He did not call for a stoning - He said: where are your accusers? go and sin no more.

when Jesus went to the home of Zaccheus, who stole money as a tax collector - Jesus did not recommend that he be whipped or punished - Zacky, in response to Jesus, out of love, gave back what he stole.

when Peter betrayed Jesus, he was not beaten, scourged, or otherwise physically disciplined. Jesus just looked at Him and he wept in repentance.

when Paul fell before Jesus on the Damascus Rd, Jesus did not issue an invective for him to be beaten. he was blinded so that he could see the truth.

I appeal to you to look at Jesus' response to sin when it was committed by those He looked upon with compassion. He did not punish, He forgave. Instruction does not need physical discipline - we have the mind of Christ, not the flesh, as they had in the OT. There has been a change in the law - we really need to look at this issue.

 

God does not "scourge" us physically as in a beating. God's scourging is to purify our hearts.

Paul was speaking to adults, not to children. He was talking of a spiritual reality.

Jesus did not need to be spanked. He was not rebellious and never sinned nor was disobedient - He grew in stature and in wisdom in the Lord. His subjection was to parental authority for instruction and training, not because He needed to be disciplined.

You are assuming that because one does not spank, that they are not Godly or do not have full authority over their child. This is wrong. I have been on both sides, so my words are not without considerable thought after years of study and prayer.

For those of you who believe that signing a no-spanking paper, is in direct opposition to God's Word - I ask if your children go to school? Most states require that no physical discipline is allowed. Does this keep you from sending your child to school?

 

eloidalmanutha, we are in agreement that a child's history is an important factor in how we train and correct them. I'll be the first to admit that each kid is different...if they've been terrorized/abused, great care must be taken, and maybe a different course of action taken. I'll even agree that within the range of "normal" kids, some respond to differing punishments better than others. My son responds better to spankings than my daughter; my daughter responds better to privileges being removed than my son.

But I still disagree with the blanket statement that "spanking your kids is wrong." I'm not sure the examples with Jesus are entirely applicable--he wasn't functioning as a parent. But don't forget, this was the same Jesus that drove the moneychangers out of the temple. Mercy AND justice.

My compliments to so many of you who have dealt with this emotional issue but have kept things civil. Bravo.

 

Jesus made a scourge and chased people out of the temple. I say spanking for correction is mild compared to that. I also say that Jesus would not have gone against the OT laws because He came to fulfill the law not to destroy it. Just because He showed compassion does not mean He would not mete out chastisement on man or child if and when necessary

 

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. The money changers were evil men who were making a mockery of God. Not sure how this applies or compares to a two year old who undoes a roll of tp in the bathroom