Scriptural training and correction or violence?

Did He really touch a dead person? When He said 'Talitha, arise' He had already told the people of the house that she was not dead, but only sleeping.

And He never touched Lazarus. He told others to loose him.

 

IF you think Jesus broke the law, then you are accusing Jesus of sinning, for sin is the transgression of the Law. The same thing the Pharisees accused Him of. But we must remember, Jesus was God in the flesh, Immanuel.

 

Luke 8:49 As He was yet speaking, someone came from the synagogue ruler, saying to him, Your daughter has died. Do not trouble the Teacher.
50 But hearing, Jesus answered him, saying, Do not fear; only believe and she will be healed.
51 And coming into the house, He did not allow anyone to enter, except Peter and James and John, and the father and mother of the girl.
52 And all were weeping and bewailing her. But He said, Stop weeping. She has not died, but is sleeping.
53 And they scoffed at Him, knowing that she died.
54 But putting all outside, and taking hold of her hand, He called out, saying, Child, rise up!
55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately. And He ordered something to eat be given to her.
56 And her parents were amazed. But He charged them to tell no one of that which occurred.

 

The word "chasten" appears to mean to instruct or admonish.
The dictionary defines it as: 1 : to correct by punishment or suffering : DISCIPLINE; also : PURIFY
2 a : to prune (as a work or style of art) of excess, pretense, or falsity : REFINE b : to cause to be more humble or restrained : SUBDUE

Link to definition in NW

BTW, thanks for the decent attitude on this thread. It's noted and very much appreciated.

If that verse is to be used to prove what we should do today, let's not forget to add the rest of it:

Deut. 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

This is not the attitude I find with my children. I have found that sitting down and talking works wonders. When they were younger, restraining them worked nicely when they threw fits. However, I didn't restrain them with the intention of forcing them to obey, I restrained them with the intention of teaching them to control themselves. Until their attitude changed, we did what we had to do. If they calmed down from a fit but still were not remorseful, they would sit in a chair or stand there thinking about it until their attitude changed. I would always know when that happened, because
1. they would tell me (btw my daughter still honestly tells me when her attitude changes, and sometimes will sit on her own now waiting for her attitude to change if she knows she's feeling wrongly towards something)
2. they'd be willing to pray
3. they'd be willing to fix what they did that was wrong. (ie pick up a toy they tossed, share with someone they hadn't shared with, etc.)

I've found the opposite to be true. Spanking frighten and scare children. They end up obeying out of fear instead of a desire to do the right thing. When I teach them to control themselves, they use what I have taught them to help them control themselves, such as sitting down and thinking, praying, going and fixing what they did wrong. A spanking simply hurts them and nothing else gets done.
Their hearts and their relationship with God are what I want to work on most with them. I want them to obey because it's the right thing to do according to God. They've already hurt themselves spiritually if they do wrong. I see it better to lead them in God's way rather than painfully force them into it. I had that. It ain't right.

What do you spank them for? Nobody is answering that.
Go ahead tell me that you never had to hold or wrestle your kids down for a spanking, they just walked over willingly and laid themselves down for you from the start? I'm thinking there's something not right about that. If you haven't, I'm sure there's a few people on here that want to know the secret of how you managed that.

 

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

******************

Exd 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Matt 5:27 ¶ You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit adultery." Ex. 20:14; Deut. 5:18
28 But I say to you, Everyone looking at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

************************

Deut 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
5 And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart , and with all your soul , and with all your might .

Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am Jehovah.

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart , and with all thy soul , and with all thy strength , and with all thy mind ; and thy neighbour as thyself.

 

Is not sin the transgression of the Law?

 

Did Jesus "sin" because He did not keep the Law? He did only what His Father told Him to do, yet He did not "keep" Torah.

You are wanting to force God into keeping a Law that was designed to *prevent* people from sinning and when they did, there was a sacrifice system in place by which they could receive forgiveness. Jesus cannot sin, so it would be pointless for Him to keep Torah which would prevent Him from sinning.

again, can you provide scripture that Jesus had to keep Torah to be the sinless Sacrifical Lamb?

 

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. Why are you dodging my simple question? Let me break it down farther...

Does the Bible say sin is the transgression of the law or no?

 

quote:
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Duet 21:18 If a man have a STUBBORN and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

This stubborn heart does not start as a young man (as mentioned above by our friend from Michigan) of 16 years old.
--------------------------------------------------

I did not say what his age was. He was a Muslim. He was a foster child. He was an evil child. I was prohibited from disciplining him. He was in my home with no way out. So I prayed for him and asked the agency to please remove him. They took their sweet time, and I had zero recourse but to treat him kindly and with compassion and share the gospel. If you think I was going to take an 18 yr old boy who weighed well over 200 lbs over my knee to spank him . . .

 

and Jesus did fulfill the Law. He was made sin for us.

yes, sin is transgression of the law. Did Jesus transgress the Law? NO. He cannot sin. Did He keep the Law? NO. He cannot sin and the Law was to prevent sin

ok, so we are going in circles
stop. let it go. we are not on the same page, this is obvious. time's up . . .

 

I noticed that the OT quotes used to defend spanking children are from Proverbs. Proverbs is not a set of commandments but is a book of wisdom. Books of wisdom provide general guidelines and key points about dealing with certain situations.

The Proverbs verses quoted make the point that to not discipline a child would be to neglect and/or spoil that child . Discipline in the OT was usually physical, so I think the verses speak of physical discipline. This does not mean, imo, it that one must discipline his/her child by spanking. What is important is that there is discipline; that is the point.

In other words, the Proverbs passage is not a commandment that one must spank his child but rather that disciplining a child is necessary and good.

I'm sure I'll get flak for this one.

 

no flak from me I am all for discipline, just on which end you apply it

 

ok - on the Torah/Mosaic Law and Jesus - to further explain my position lest you think I am a heretic


1) Torah is carnal [Heb 7:16].

2) Torah was vanishing away [Heb 8:13].

3) Torah was no longer valid by the time Jesus came, because Israel had broken the covenant [Jer 31].

4) The Law was no longer recognizeable because the Pharisees had twisted it, added to it, made it of no regard.

5) Jesus said that He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. He began to fulfill Torah by teaching that it had changed - been redefined. He added to it, subtracted from it - which is in contridiction to the Law. He completely fulfilled the Law on the cross [Col 2]

6) God said that there would be a new covenant in which Torah would be written on the heart [Jer 31]. Not the letter of the Law, but the Spirit of the Law [2 Cor 3]. This is what Jesus taught when He said - a New Commandment I give unto you, that you love on another as I have loved you [John 13:24].

7) Jesus also taught a New Doctrine [Mark 1:27] which was the foundation of the Apostles [Acts 17:19; John 18:17; Acts 2:24; Acts 13;12

8) The Law was given as a pattern, a shadow of Heavenly things - of what was to come [Heb 8:5]. Jesus was the fulfillment of that pattern. There was no point to Him keeping a Law that was vanishing away. His Priesthood was sinless and above the Levitcal priesthood [Heb 7], a better covenant, a more excellent ministry, better promises - for if the first was faultless, place would not have been sought for a second [Heb 8]. Although that was fully accomplished on the cross, Jesus life and ministry was in process of finishing it - who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross [Heb 12:2]

9) Yes, Jesus "observed" Torah because He was born a Jew, but Jesus is not a Jew - He is God. He did not observe the Law to be righteous. He is Righteouness. He did not observe the Law to be sinless. He is Sinless. He wrote the Law, gave the Law to Israel. But He did not "keep" the Law perfectly. There was no need. Torah was being done away with. He is the Word made flesh.

for reference:

2 Cor 3 [the whole chapter gives a wonderful picture]

6 ¶ who also made us able ministers of a new covenant, not of letter, but of Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.
7 But if the ministry of death having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory, so as that the sons of Israel could not gaze into "the face of Moses" because of the glory of his face, which was to cease, Ex. 34:34
8 how much rather the ministry of the Spirit will be in glory!

11 For if the thing done away was through glory, much rather the thing remaining is in glory.


13 And not as "Moses, who put a veil over his face," for the sons of Israel not to gaze at the end of the thing being done away. Ex. 34:35
14 But their thoughts were hardened, for until the present time the same veil remains on the reading of the Old Covenant, not being unveiled, that it is being done away in Christ.


hope that helps

shalom!

 

Be careful. If you spank your kids to hard and they tell their school counselor and the counselor sees red marks on your child's behind, they CAN call the authorities and have your child REMOVED from your home and you brought up on charges of child abuse. No more, spare the rod and spare the child nowadays. Or it could be the slammer for you.

 

Nowhere in the Bible can you find 'Spare the rod and spoil the child', unless it is one of the modern versions. The Bible says, 'He that spareth his rod hateth his son; But he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.'

The Hebrew word for 'beatest' is 'nakah', meaning to strike or give stripes

The Hebrew word for 'rod' is 'shebet' meaning literally, a stick.

Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

 

I don't think that any of us want to flagrantly disobey God's Word. That is not my intent, ever.

I also realize that we need balance when interpreting God's Word. Is it not possible that Jesus taught us a better way to discipline?

The Law was harsh and stringent. Punishment was meeted out because the flesh was unruly, rebellious - they were without the indwelt Spirit of God.

This is why I think we need to examine how we discipline. Sparing the rod, spoiling the child is not applicable in every case, because some children are not rebellious. They learn at an early age that doing wrong and disobeying displeases God, understand it, and are receptive to being trained. They also are not spoiled.

I guess I am not sure how beating a child keeps from spoiling them. Spoiling them from what? Does Solomon mean that if a child gets everything they want or is allowed to misbehave because discipline has not been administered and they THEN need the rod?

Again, we must view this harsh punishment in context of the New Covenant and I don't think that is being done.

I agree that firm discipline must be administered. But I also understand that rebellion is not always solved with spankings and beatings. Currently I am involved in a situation where there is rebellion, but also severe depression and an extreme case of RAD. To take a rod to this child would push them into suicide. There are so many issues at stake, that I am extremely concerned that an unreasonable attitude is being pushed, at the risk of showing no mercy and compassion.

I understand also, from getting deeply into child raising issues and dealing with RAD [reactive attachment disorder - which occurs even in children from good christian homes - and is becoming an increasingly huge problem in tons of children] that unless that child is treated with immense amounts of love, and solid eye contact, firmness and gentleness, structure, and consistency - they will never be able to form lasting relationships or deal with the trauma. Any physical correction in these cases only causes more severe trauma - which is one reason [trauma] they become RAD kids to begin with.

All I know is that chastisment from God can be painful, but He does not beat us into submission, nor turn our butts red to force us to obey. With the indwelt Spirit, we are called to walk in love and compassion, but with firmness and all diligence, just as God loves, disciplines, and treats us as His children.

 

They can have you brought up on charges regardless. My crime was ticking off a social worker, the actual charge she tried to push through was medical dependency, meaning they believed my daughter had a medical problem that I couldn't control. Without knowing which child was ill or what was wrong. The paperwork amused me enough that I still have it. It says something worded almost exactly like this: "one child has some medical thing that she sees a specialist for. I don't know which one."
I showed that one to Helen, who posts here, so iffen ya don't believe me, she can back me up on that!

That was it.
The kid has an aberrant artery in her heart. It would have been interesting to see how they controlled it. (and she was seeing a world class surgeon, so it's not like it wasn't being addressed)

ANYHOW! Yes, on spanking, they can and often will charge you if they feel the need. They have wonderful skills of rewording. For example, you may say you gave a child three swats on the diaper with a wooden spoon.
The evidence submitted to the judge will read something like this: "suspect admits to striking child multiple times with a piece of wood".

They don't just use spanking though. They will get you on anything they can. They can even use chores, and say you're expecting the child to perform adult responsibilities instead of being in the role of a child, and take them for emotional abuse.

I'm not thrilled with the injustices that run rampant in many CPS offices, I'm sure most people know that by now.
So please don't get me going again! LOL