WOMEN PREACHERS

Scarlett,

I am not saying a woman can pastor. The Word of God plainly says the bishop must be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband. Pastoral position is definitely a male role.

But that is not to say God cannot use a woman in His service to preach once in a while. As I pointed out, there were many women used by God to proclaim the Word and I read nowhere where they were rebuked for preaching or prophesying.

 

Wow, SFIC. I totally agree with you here. Great post.

 

Scarlett and TaterTot,

Don't just agree with me because it sounds good. Be like the Bereans in Acts 17. Search the scriptures and see if it be so.

As a matter of fact, you should have a mind to search the scriptures no matter who is speaking and saying it is there.

 

Scarlet,

I am not ticked at women! Far be it from me. I am ticked at people who explain away clear and consistent declarations of the Word of God! I am ticked at people who deny the Word of God as authoritative. I am not ticked at women. If anything I am ticked at the men who let them stand in the church and teach the written Word of God in an authoritative manner.

StandingFirm,

Corrections in the name of precision (more on that in a moment):

The woman at the well did not “preach” (kerussw) (I am not checking Grk spelling, so you scholars out there cut me a little slack, ok), she did not “teach” (didaskw), she “spoke” - simple legw. Nor did she speak to all about Christ, she “said” to the men, “come see a man who told me all that ever I did, could this be the Messiah” (John 4:29). She did “testify” (marturew) about her encounter with Jesus (4:39).

The women at the tomb were not told to preach, they were told to tell (epw-Matt 28:7, Mrk 16:7 and epangellew (Matt 28:9). Again, NOT preach or teach - kerussw/didasko. Further, this was in a more private setting, not the assembly of the saints.

Aquila and Priscilla “expounded” (ektithami-to put or place out) the way of God more perfectly in a private discipleship setting, not public teaching in the church. Any special reason you reversed the order of the text in Acts 18:26?

The text of Scripture never says that Phebe taught! It calls her a “servant” and never once uses the words preach or teach in connection with her in the two passages where her name occurs (Rom 16:1,27). Recall my earlier mention of precision in citing the Word of God?

Phillip’s four virgin daughters did indeed prophesy (Acts 21:9). There is no indication that they did so in the assembly or that there were men present. Again, please note the absence of the words preach or teach. Same thing regarding Anna (Luke 2:36).

Now, in more detail regarding the matter of precision in teaching the Word of God. If you can generalize away from specific commands of Scripture by using passages that do not say what you said they say, then I guess you are free to have your own preferences, since you have redefined what God has indeed said.

If you can minimize Paul’s words to nothing more than opinion, then I guess you can rule that out, too.

HOWEVER, the reason for his command in 2Tim 2:12 is that “the man was first formed, then Eve” (v. 13) which goes back to even before the fall. This was God creation order. In the fall, the woman was deceived (v. 14). This is a further reason why the woman is not to “teach” (didaskw) or to usurp authority over the man.

In your next post you said: “I read nowhere where they were rebuked for preaching or prophesying...” OK. Where do you read that women ever “preached” to men or “prophesied” to men, or where they ever spoke publicly in a church assembly? Guess what, it is not there, no need for it to have been rebuked. They knew better...

Ticked off? Yeah, when people distort the Word and deny clear commands from the Apostle who wrote almost half of the New Testament, the Apostle who had the mind of Christ (1Cor 2:16), demonstrated the signs of Apostleship (2Cor 12:12), and was commissioned directly by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and the Father (Gal 1:1).

Paul’s opinion or as you said, “own personal preferences”? God forbid (Rom 6:2).

Bereans? Indeed. That verse is on the front of our bulletin every Sunday, at Berea Baptist...

So, Tater, read the verses I mentioned with more precision and less generalization. Still agree? (Oh btw, glad you are OK. Prayed for you during Katrina and aftermath. Worried some when we did not hear from you for a while there...)

 

(Thanks, RJ.) How about when Paul is giving instructions about the headcoverings (and lets dont take this thread down that road again) - he says "when" you prophesy. Doesnt that assume that they will be doing so? And isnt it in the context of corporate worship?

 

Again, it is not preach or teach. In 1Cor 11:5, there is not even a faint indication that corporate worship is involved. Regarding women in corporate worship, in the church, Paul speaks in chapter 14.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (1Cor 14:34-35).

I would understand this in light of 1Tim 2. The wording is not ambiguous here, it is really pretty straightforward. Only when we refer to it rather loosely can we get to the place where many here have gone...

 

First of all, how in the world can you say its not about corporate worship? Look at the passage in its context. What comes right after it? Before it?

We also must consider the social background of the original recipients of this passage. With all due respect (and I do respect you), I must respectfully disagree

 

1Cor 11:1, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." This sounds more like personal walk than corporate worship. And clearly the last part of Chap 10 is not dealing with corporate worship - not going to a feast at the idols temple...

Yep, in 11:17 he definitely starts talking about corporate worship there. Not in 11:4, or 13.

AND CLEARLY Chapter 14:34-35 says "in the churches... in the church" and forbids women speaking publicly.

Thank you for your respect. Let's deal with the text as it reads though, not as some wish it to read...

(Oh btw, miss your picture with your baby's hand near your face, but I did read why you took it off. And thanks for continued prayers for Matthew, he is doing well.)

 

Oh, and the social background is important if the writer is dealing with a specific social custom relevant to a particular culture, i.e. the shaving of heads and temple prostitutes in Corinth.

It is not valid to suggest that "times have changed" and therefore clear commands in Scripture that are founded on God's creation order should therefore be ignored or reasoned away...

 

The preachers do all that the women were told to do. The women at the well were told to go tell the disciples who were assembled in the city. They were told to proclaim the gospel to an assembly.

The woman at the well witnessed, yes. But she did more than witness. She preached Christ to the men. She revealed to them the fact that Christ brought hidden sin to light.

Phillip's daughters, I believe did prophesy in the presence of Paul and his company of men. Why would that verse be mentioned in that passage if not? And then go on to say, we tarried there many days.

Phebe was a servant. Look that word up and you will find she was a deaconess in the church.

Anna spake in the temple of Jesus to all. The word spake here is translated 'preached' in the Greek.

Aquila and Priscilla, whether in private or secretly expounded or taught a man the words of God. She did teach and a man at that.

Again, it was plainly Paul's preference that a woman be in silence.

 

I didnt say that times had changed. I know that is the reasoning of some, but not me. However, customs of corporate worship were different in that time. Have you studied them?

ALl around that passage (I Cor 11) is corproate worship. "Be ye followerS...", all the talk of the Lord's Supper. I will look at it more closely tomorrow, to be fair.

 

I don't think she was suggesting that at all. I think that she was suggesting that in order to understand the clear commands of Scripture, you must first understand the Scriptural context of the command (exegesis) instead of trying to read a modern day context into Scripture (eisegesis), and I think she is correct.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Standing,

You sidestepped most of what I said. You did not deal with absence of “preach” and “teach” except in reference to Anna, and you were mistaken on that one. The Greek word is lalew, not karussw or didaskw, not even euangellidzw (preach the good news).

Phebe was not a deaconess! She was a servant! There is absolutely NO BASIS for taking the word diakonos as a technical term in that passage (Rom 16:2). AND, even if there was it still does not indicate that she preached or taught men in the assembly or that she had authority over men in any capacity...

Scripture never states that the virgins prophesied in Paul’s presence, in the presence of his company, or in the presence of any men. You have jumped to an unfounded conclusion...

It was not Paul's preference, it was his COMMAND to Timothy regarding how things should be done in the church! (1Tim 3:15)

Tater,

Sorry. Did not mean to put words in your mouth. Yes I certainly understand that social customs and situations must be considered. But these issues never take precedence over clear statements or commands such as 1Tim 2. Corporate worship is not clearly in the passage till 11:17. I am sure you will see this upon a more careful reading...


Joseph,

I agree. Did you note any eisegesis in what I wrote?

And thanks for coming to her assistance, I should have been more clear. The suggestion that some do not accept the antiquated concepts of a literal interpretation of Paul’s writings was in no way directed at Tater.

 

Anna spake

Luke 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

lalew laleo lal-eh'-o

a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. utter words:--preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter.

Acts 21:8 Paul's company entered Phillips house
21:9 Phillip had 4 daughters which did prophesy
21:10 Paul's company abode there many days.

Why mention the daughters prophesied if they did not? Or why not say they refrained from prophesying while the company was there?

 

Standing,

Sorry. Did not notice that the AV trs do indeed translate lalew as "preach" six times. Do not have easy access to either TDNT or Andt and Gingrich at the moment. BUT, lalew is not the normal word for preach. What lexicon did you use that lists "preach" first under the definition of lalew?

I went to Florida and visited my Aunt. Her son is a surfer. Can I assume therefore that he must have surfed in the house while I was there? Same logic.

Deal with my other points...

 

I use the strongs concordance mainly when checking the greek


As to your cousin, I could not say. Did she leave the water running?

 

Yep, I see it in mine. Listed first. Not a very good choice by James S. IMO, being as the word is used 296 times in the NT and is only translated as "preach" 6 times while it is translated as "speak, say, tell, talk, utter" 287 times and misc others 3 times.

 

ahhhh, but it is there. so who is to say that it is not to be translated preach in that particular instance.

If I remember correctly, my Vines translates it as preach as well.

All I am saying is we cannot throw it out completely just because Paul said 'I suffer not a woman to teach...' God used women in the Old Testament, I am sure He used women in the New as well. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The majority of times He used women in the Old was when men wouldnot step up and do the job. He can still do the same today.

 

God may be the same, but His commands have changed from age to age.

Don't eat meat, OK, you can eat meat, just not ham, OK, everything in the sheet is OK now....

Don't preach to the Gentiles, or the Samaritans. OK, now tell everybody...

And, yes, God can do whatever He wants, but He will not act contrary to His character as revealed in Scripture. God cannot sin.

AND, God does not tell women to preach to men and teach men the Word of God contrary to clear commands in Scripture! Disagree? Fine, give me chapter and verse as I have...

Speaking of leaving the water running, time for me to pull the stopper out for now and go to sleep...