How do you explain these verses?

I do so enjoy reading such edifying, uplifting, aannnn-- z-z-zz-ZUK! uh- dah - oh [shake cobwebs out of head] and informative thr-ea-

 

Frenchy:

Bothers me when someone exalts themselves especially when they are wrong. I guess you meant that you were the one who does not know the scriptures.

quote: (Frenchy)

Dear Brother Bob I don't really think bad of anybody, I do not know you. I just hate it when people do not give the full scripture verses when they try to defend their side that's all. It is hard to prove or disprove without it. I had a very hard time finding what you were talking about. thanks for letting me know what it was.

quote:
Frenchy:
You post "did I make it up" says volumes what you think of me but so be it. I do wonder for I am sure you and the others believe you are part of the "elect". Do you all feel superior to the rest of mankind? Your remarks were unnecessary.

Isaiah, chapter 45

17": But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

"18": For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

"19": I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

"20": Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

"21": Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

"22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
"23": I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

"24": Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

"25": In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

 

Scripture and theologians frequently use the term ‘election’ to indicate the sovereign choice of God. Scripture speaks of election in three different contexts, only one of which is election unto salvation.

1. The first context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is the choice of Israel as a people through which the promised redeemer would come.

Deuteronomy 7:6,7, KJV
6. For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:

Such election is not associated with personal salvation as shown in the following passage.

Romans 9:6,7, KJV
6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

2. The second context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is vocational.

God called Aaron and his descendants out of the tribe of Levi to be priests but not all were called to salvation. Jesus Christ called twelve men to be apostles but only eleven of them were chosen to salvation.

3. The third context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is election unto salvation: God the Father Chooses a People For His Own.

Scripture teaches that God the Father chooses or elects those who, in Jesus Christ, will be saved. That choice or election is the role of God the Father in the Covenant of Grace. Those who are chosen in Jesus Christ will become the Saints, the ‘true believers’.

The Apostle Paul, writing to the Saints at Ephesus, summarizes this doctrine as follows:

Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

What does Scripture mean when it teaches that God has chosen us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world?

James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:

“God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:

“All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”

Dagg’s definition of election is greatly expanded upon in the text and presupposes an understanding of the Covenant of Grace. He does, however, show what Scripture means by the statement chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ]. The elect are given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace, that is they are saved only through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins.

John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election as follows [Concise Theology , page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]

“The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom He would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ. This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and a matter for endless praise, that He should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when His choice involved the giving of His own Son to suffer as sin bearer for the elect.”

W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine , page 155]:

“It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”

 

We look now at the Scriptural basis for the above statements of the doctrine of election to salvation which follows the method presented by John Dagg, Manual of Theology, page 309ff:

1. God has a people that He has elected or chosen to salvation.

1 Peter 2:9, KJV
9. But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Romans 8:33, KJV
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

2 Thessalonians 2:13, KJV
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Acts 13:48, KJV
48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John 6:65, KJV
65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

2. Election is by the sovereign grace of God.

Romans 9:15,16, KJV
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 1:5, KJV
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

3. Election is not of works.

2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 9:10,11, KJV
10. And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
11. (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Romans 11:5,6, KJV
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

4. The election of grace is from eternity.

Ephesians 1:4, KJV
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:13, KJV
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2, KJV
2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

5. Election is not on the basis of foreseen faith.

Ephesians 1:4, KJV
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 2:8-10, KJV
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 12:3, KJV
3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

6. Election is according to the foreknowledge of God.

1 Peter 1:2, KJV
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

From the above Scripture we see that election is indeed according to the sovereign grace and purpose of God. These Scripture show the necessity of the sovereignty of God’s grace in salvation. Without election no one would be saved. The Second London Confession of Faith of 1689 states concerning the natural state of man [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith,page 264]:

“Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as a natural man, being altogether adverse from good, and dead in sin is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.”

Dagg [Manual of Theology, page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

Herein has been briefly described the doctrine of election, a most precious doctrine that magnifies the sovereign grace of God, a doctrine that was once the bedrock of Baptist beliefs but in recent years has come into disrepute. God’s purpose in election is summarized once again by referring to the passages from Romans and Ephesians:

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

Old Regular:

Is it necessary to preach repentance , or eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die? I hope to get time this evening to go through each scripture as this one:

4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (this is what he chose before the foundation of the world and this is what it takes to be US. The scriptures have to be able to tie into what Jesus himself said or preaching is in vain.

 

How can someone repent unless they first believe?

 

Frenchy:

God did have a plan of salvation and the apostles fit into that plan as shown in the following:

“God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

same answer:

9: Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentile. Are you one of these Frenchy?
I certainly believe the apostles were prechosen and his plan of salvation.

Frenchy: Are you sure that you are one of them or living on a guess? If you are saved by Grace through faith, (why?) if you are already prechosen? And stop being so nasty!!!

Why preach repentance unto the whole world if only the "elect" can repent?

OldRegular:

quote, How can someone repent unless they first believe?

No need, thought they were prechosen?

 

OldReg: That was some impressive posting. You're going to put everyone to sleep with your precise definitions! Some of these folks want to debate legend, not fact.

 

So,God created the vast majority of mankind so He could destroy them. Hogwash

 

Please excuse the previous post, just let nature get in the way for a second.

2 Peter, chapter 1


"1": Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

"2": Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

"3": According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

"4": Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

"5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

"8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

"10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Why would it tell me to add these things if I had nothing to do with it? Also, how could my calling and election be lost if I was one of the elect? I was just wondering!!

 

One problem, Israel is elect and precious, but Jacob never was elect.

I wonder why some one will post multiple verses and ask for those to answer them, but that would take hours, so why don't we just limit this to one verse at a time?

The Presisdent "elect" is not yet President, neither was he Presisdent elect the entirety of his life.

Sinners are precious in the sight of God is why He chose to send His Son for us all, but they cannot be elect in their state of sin, that would make God the author of sin.

Logic even explains away Calvinism, and God's ways are "past finding out", so why is it Calvin couldn't define election by simple logic?

 

Why excuse it? I'm applauding.

 

You applaud those going to hell due to their rejecting your Saviour? Heresy!

 

Got to watch out for that "old Esau man"!