Hate?

From Robert Haldane's commentary of Romans :

The passage in Malachi , from which these words , ' Esau have I hated,' are quoted by the Apostle , proves what is meant by the expression in the verse before us . ' I have loved you , saith the Lord : yet ye say , Wherein hast Thou loved us ? Was not Esau Jacob's brother ? saith the Lord : yet I loved Jacob , and I hated Esau , and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness . Whereas Edom saith , We are impoverished , but we will return and build the desolate places ; thus saith the Lord of hosts , They shall build , but I will throw down ; and they shall call them , The border of wickedness , and , The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever .' Here the prophet first speaks of Esau personally as Jacob's brother , which clearly indicates the meaning attached by the Apostle to the quotation . It implies , too , that Jacob had no claim to be preferred to his brother . Afterwards , in the denunciation , Esau's descendants are spoken of under the name of Edom , when the singular is changed for the plural , and the past time for the future and the present . The denunciation of indignation for ever upon the Edomites , and the call of God to Israel to observe the difference of His dealings towards them , shows what is meant by God's love of Jacob , and His hatred of Esau .

 

...if he loves the ones he is throwing into the lake of fire he surely has a strange way of showing it.

He died for them. They are the ones who have a strange way of thanking Him. They are the ones who have turned their backs on HIM. And when you turn away from God, there is only one other destination. They have chosen where they will go for eternity.

 

Does He love those in the Lake of Fire Helen ? If you believe that He died for those in the Lake of Fire and those who are going there -- that means He took their punishment upon Himself . So they will have to pay for something that was not quite enough of a payment the first time by Christ ?!

No Helen, He died for , in the place of ,those He came to save -- look at the golden chain in Romans 8-28-30 . He died for these , and these only . He died in the stead of His church that He purchased with His own blood .

 

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men -- the testimony given in its proper time."
1 Timothy 2:5

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by the power of his word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty n heaven."
Heb. 1:3

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
Heb. 2:9

"Such a high priest meets our need -- one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."
Heb. 7:26-27

"Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."
Heb. 9:25-26

Jesus paid the price for ALL sin. It is not sin which sends anyone to hell, as a result. It is, rather, the refusal to believe, as Jesus Himself states as plainly as possible in John 3:16-18:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I don't see how the Bible could be any clearer.

 

Acts 2:39 The promise is for ... all whom the Lord our God will call .

Ro.8:30 And those He predestined , He also called ; those He called , He also justified , He also glorified .

Ro.8:32 ... He gave Him up for us all .

Ro.11:5 ... there is a remnant chosen by grace

1 Cor.1:24 to those whom God has called

1 Cor. 15:23 those who belong to Him

2 Cor. 4:6 God ... made His light shine in our hearts

Eph. 1:14 those who are God's possession

Phil. 1:29 For it has been granted to you ... to believe on Him

Col. 2:13 God made you alive with Christ

2 Tim. 1:9,10 saved us and called us ... because of His own purpose and grace . this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time .

Titus 2:4 Who gave Himself for us to redeem us ... a people that are His very own .

Heb. 1:14 ... angels ... sent to serve those who will inherit salvation

Heb. 7:25 ... those who come to God through Him-- He always lives to intercede for them

Heb. 9:15 ... those who are called -- He died as a ransom to set them free

Rev. 14:4 They [ not all, some ] were purchased from among the human race ( see 5:9 ,7:9 )

 

Suggest you put them back into context, please, and not just use snippets.

Using snippets I can do interesting things, too:

"All the law and the Prophets hang..."

"for many will come in my name..."

"I tell you, you will not see me again..."

"Listen to what the unjust judge says."

It's ever so much better when quotes are given in context, don't you think?

 

You can believe that, sir, but that is not what the Bible is saying in the passages I quoted above. All men are potentially saved, but those who reject it are allowed to reject it. God does not force salvation or heaven on anyone. It is provided for everyone. It is accepted by few.

 

This can not be true because scripture states that the gift must be accepted. We know all will not accept it, even though it is offered, and that God does not force Himself on people. Acceptance by force is compulsion, not acceptance.

True, but scripture does not say this.

True, but scripture does not say this either.

Yes, but by the adoption a dog can become a sheep. That is what is so wonderful about grace.

 

This can not be true because scripture states that the gift must be accepted. We know all will not accept it, even though it is offered, and that God does not force Himself on people. Acceptance by force is compulsion, not acceptance.

True, but scripture does not say this.

True, but scripture does not say this either.

Yes, but by the adoption a dog can become a sheep. That is what is so wonderful about grace. </font>[/QUOTE]BroShane, let's try it this way:

All men are saved, T or F.
All men are not saved, T or F.
Some men are saved. T or F.

 

I think it's best to throw out the first two questions because it is clear that not everyone is saved and not everyone is lost. The answer to these questions doesn't matter as they are accepted as true and can be shown so by scripture rightly understood. So, barring an abberant belief such as Universalism (which is not scripturally supported), there's no need to look at them.

As to the third question, it can be the only logical and scripturally supported answer. Some men are saved and some are lost. However, I suspect it is not the answer that you want to discuss, but how one arrives at it. If that's the case, then please just ask your question or make your point.

 

Bro. Shane said: "As to the third question, it can be the only logical and scripturally supported answer"

Thank you.

Now, accepting that some men are saved, and adding that some men are not saved, then the question becomes: Why are some men saved, and others not?

 

Because they have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior in the manner stated in scripture:

Romans 10:8-11 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. - empasis mine

Those that are saved are saved by grace through faith, those that are not saved are those who have not had faith (or rejected it) that Christ is the Son of God and have not repented of their sin.

 

"those that are not saved are those who have not had faith (or rejected it) "

BroShane, I like that answer. Take a close look at what you said, though. You've given me two options here:

1. They do not have faith.
2. They rejected it (I presume "it" is faith).

Now the bible clearly states that not all men have faith. I can find the reference if you like. To 'HAVE FAITH' indicates possession. Some men to not posses faith.

Agreed so far?

Now the next question would be: Why don't all men have faith?

 

ALL men have faith. It is just a matter of what or who they have faith in!

 

Is Helen answering for you, BroShane?

 

It depends on what kind of faith we are talking about. I am talking about saving faith, that faith that leads to the accepting of Christ and repentance. I don't see faith so much as a possession in this context but, rather, as a state of being or, better said, believing.

Having said that, the reason all men do not have saving faith is that they either have never followed the guidance of the Spirit when He moves in their heart, or they come to the point when they know (through the Word) that they are lost and rebel, stopping short of acceptance of the Gospel.

P.S. I went back and read my post where I asked you to ask your question or to make your point and it did not come across as I intended it to. It sounded snippy and I did not intend it that way.

 

Nope. I was just stating a fact that should be taken into account here.

 

For all men have not faith is biblical Helen .

You still haven't answered my questions . One in particular : Did Jesus die for anyone who ends up in the Lake of Fire ? Did He atone for someone's sins who will , nevertheless , spend eternity suffering for his sins that Jesus supposedly took away ?

Some more for you . Are saved people the author of their own salvation ? Should they get the credit for " deciding for Christ " ? Does salvation hinge on their choice , under their bare naked power ?

In essence does the independent God depend on His own dependent creatures ?

Did Jesus die for all without exception or all without distinction ?

Does God desire the salvation of those for who He made no provision ?

 

Rippon, your strawmen have been answered numerous times here. I would suggest going to the 2005 archives and looking at the old calvinism arminianism forum.