The Necessity of Doctrine

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mioque:
We are going to torture you to death for....

establishing a soupkitchen!!!!!


Just doesn't have the same ring to it.

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You'd think it would be obvious to everyone, wouldn't you? But so many "ministries" are elevating the soupkitchen above the pulpit these days. </font>[/QUOTE]I would say that is more biblical than those who preach good doctrine and do nothing for the poor. There are many more instances in the bible of calls to care for the poor than their are to preach good doctrine, although both are definitely important and should go hand in hand. If your church truly does preach good biblical doctrine, caring for the poor and concern for social justice, which are topics laced throughout the old and new testament, should be a natural outflow of that preaching. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree, Gold Dragon, with the caveat that doctrine is the horse, and social action is just one of the carts, and you don't want any of the carts before that horse. James tells the story of faith leading to social action in James 2:14-17.

Here is another caveat. While we should feed the hungry (beginning with other Christians, Gal. 6:10), we do far more for a person by winning them to Christ and thus seeing their whole life change. It is the old story of the choice of giving a man a fish to feed him today, or teaching him to fish so he can feed himself the rest of his life.

The old-time evangelists use to see an entire town change when they had their extended revival meetings (several weeks or months). They say that after Billy Sunday got through with a town, the bars were closed for lack of business!

One of my mentors, Dr. Monroe Parker (director of our mission board for many years), went to a town in Kentucky many years ago that was nicknamed "Hell," it was so wicked. In fact, a previous evangelist had been shot and killed in the town. By the time Dr. Parker's meetings were over, there had been an attempt on his life, and the local pastor, an old man, had been beaten up. But revival came with hundreds saved, and the town was tamed!

Oh that God would bring back those days of real revival in America!!

Originally posted by CompassionateConservative:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John of Japan:
I would agree to an extent here, but I would rephrase it.

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And so would I probably.

These are written on the fly, and I'm not positive that I'm communicating exactly what I believe/think about an issue.

Your doctrine determines your worship, so it is primary. If your doctrine is that Christ is worthy of praise, than your worship will praise Him.

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Amen! And well put! Honestly, I may use your statement: "Your doctrine determines your worship." </font>[/QUOTE]Anyone is welcome to use anything I say if it can be a blessing! "There is nothing new under the sun," amen? Some one no doubt said it better sometime, somewhere.

Good discussion.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:18-20

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, Matt. 11:29

JohnofJapan writes:

One of my mentors, Dr. Monroe Parker (director of our mission board for many years), went to a town in Kentucky many years ago that was nicknamed "Hell," it was so wicked. In fact, a previous evangelist had been shot and killed in the town. By the time Dr. Parker's meetings were over, there had been an attempt on his life, and the local pastor, an old man, had been beaten up. But revival came with hundreds saved, and the town was tamed!

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There actually is a town in Michigan named "Hell". It is about 30 miles from Pontiac, and 40 from downtown Detroit. Hell is south of "Paradise" , MI, of course. The town of Paradise is located in the Upper Peninsula on the shore of Lake Superior. Hell is in the Lower Peninsula, natch! Y'all will, of course, enjoy knowing that Paradise has almost twice as many residents [466] as Hell [266] at last census. Of course, it gets better- Don't like Hell? Try 'Hellier' [KY - Pop. 150]! Still not sure? Maybe you'd prefer 'Hell-For-Certain' [alternately 'Hell-for-Sartin' KY] Pop. ~ 15. Just so everyone will know, each and every one of these is a place, not a made up name. Hellier, located in Pike Co. KY actually has, or did have a fairly large HS located there, one of about six in Pike County.

Ed

When Philip was called to walk alongside the Ethiopian, that is the only direction he got -- walk alongside.

I think, in our eagerness to share the Gospel, we forget that first thing. Walking alongside, to me, means becoming friends, looking out for their interests and helping when you can. It can involve soup kitchens or feeding and clothing, or babysitting, or just time with a lonely person. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to me that this sort of walking alongside is going to do a lot more to make a person interested in what you have to say about God than just coming on with the Gospel.

Jesus' two main commands were to love God and love our neighbors. To love means to care for. To dedicate oneself to the benefit of another. Of course it means discussing what is on one's heart, with both believers and unbelievers, but at the right time -- and I strongly believe that it is the Holy Spirit who knows the right time and that we need to pay attention to Him and not just bombard people with what we believe or threats of hell for not converting (reminds me of Muslims!) or such.

Yesterday my husband went with me to the doctors and in the waiting room another couple noticed Barry's sweatshirt which had the words "Work for God, the retirement benefits are great." And they started talking to him about the Lord. He invited it with his shirt and they initiated the conversation. And others listened.

That way works, too!

I look at all the 'conversions' in Sunday Schools and see them as adults later, many of whom I have seen reject their earlier training in the Bible. I think of the Billy Graham Crusades where thousands 'convert' and it 'sticks' with a few. I think of the claims of revivals where masses are converted, and most eventually slide into their old lives.

Even the Puritans, who were escaping persecution and the right to worship God in their own manner found that after just two generations they had to form the "Half-way covenant" in order to keep their churches active and functional.

But then I look at the quiet people who simply make friends and share about the Lord with these friends, and I see these friends joyful and consistently faithful in their Christianity. It seems to be more like Jesus did it -- quietly, slowly, one on one. He spent three years with twelve men, and one of them betrayed Him. Eleven people in three years. That's less than four a year average!

But He sure did walk alongside -- every step of the way until it was THEY who could no longer go where HE was going.

And all the doctrinal points got hammered out later. They seemed to be able to worship quite well without the creeds, however.

Helen,

The effectiveness of “life-style evangelism” has absolutely nothing to do with the importance of good doctrine. The failure of “say the magic prayer” salvation is a result of evangelism that is based on BAD doctrine. Discipleship is only as good as the content of the teaching. Good discipleship with BAD doctrine will produce faithful cult members but it will never produce faithful followers of the Lord Jesus!

As for Jesus walking with them, He taught them (didaskw/didakay), continuously!

Mt 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine;

Mt 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Mr 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

Mr 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Mr 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Mr 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

Lu 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 18:19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.

Ac 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Ac 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.

Ac 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Ac 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Just a few more...

1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
This one says that the elders who labor in the word and doctrine are worthy of both special respect and compensation. In our culture today, it is the elder/pastor who draws the biggest crowd that seems to receive the most respect and the most compensation. Brethren, these things ought not so to be...


I cannot believe anybody would argue against the vital primacy of doctrine. I stand amazed...

Repeatedly, Paul said, “I would not have you ignorant...” (Rom 1:13; 11:25; 1Cor 10:1; 12:1; 2Cor 1:8; 1Thes 4:13).

By the attitude of some toward the idea of teaching sound doctrine, one might think that Paul had rather encouraged ignorance.

Oh, forgot to mention Amos 3:3 -- "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

I understand what you are saying. But I also know that very few people will pay much attention to those they do not trust. When you walk alongside someone and they start to know you as a friend and trust you, then what you say is going to have much more impact on their lives.

Anyone who has read my posts for any amount of time knows I rail strongly against the 'magic words' bit of getting someone to say the sinner's prayer. My brother did this to my mother, who was deeply into psychics, reincarnation, etc., via the Unity School of Christianity. To please my brother she said the sinner's prayer. My brother felt better and my mother never changed that I was aware of!

So, no, I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that we do a whole lot better when we walk alongside first. Teaching sound doctrine is something we do for a new believer. That is part of making a disciple -- and we still need to be walking alongside...

But that initial explanation of the Gospel is received by someone who has seen Him in our lives a whole better than if we just use words. It is our lives which are our witness to His power and glory, not our words. Our words are what we use when questions are asked and points need to be explained. But if Jesus is not working through our lives, our words are empty. Remember 1 Cor. 13?

Originally posted by rjprince:
Oh, forgot to mention Amos 3:3 -- "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

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That quote refers to God and the Israelites. If you like, apply it to God and anyone. But it is not referring, in that context, to two people.

Helen,

I too understand what you are saying, and personally from your description I don't think you'd fall into the trap that I am concerned with in this line of thinking.

One thing you said about Jesus and His disciples caught my attention. You attributed to Him only 11 followers after 4 years, and that's not how it was. Jesus very often spoke to thousands at a time, and He had many who came to believe on Him through His years of ministry. Immediately after His crucifixion there were 120 of His followers in the Upper Room meeting together, for example. And it is recorded that He showed Himself before He ascended to upwards of 500 of His followers at a time. So I do not believe we can say that Jesus had only 11 disciples upon His death. Those 11 were His Apostles, special set-apart men who were appointed to carry on and give His revelation to the world later. But they were not His only disciples.

The only danger I see in what you are talking about, Helen, is that many people take it to mean that we can just live right and wait for people to come up to us and ask us about Christ.....in all cases. They take it to the point where they will NEVER approach another person. Even if that other person were to get offended by a polite person asking if they know Christ, we must take that chance if the Holy Spirit leads us to do so.

Im pretty sure that you, personally, are not trying to discount or downplay passing out tracts to strangers, but I know many people who take this position to that extreme....they thus excuse themselves from ever talking to people unless they are specifically asked.....which in most people's lives is extremely rare.

Worship IS important.

More important than the Word? No, I don't think so.

Helen,

We are in full agreement that witnessing and any teaching is always best in the context of good relationship. But, that is not the only way to teach. Sometimes we have visitors who hear my sermon. I have never met them and they have never met me. The lack of relationship does not negate the effect of the power of God's Word.

Yes. I know the context of Amos 3. It was not to us, but it is for us. I was using the passage by application. Same idea as 2Chron 7:14 being a promise to Israel not the US. But the principle that God blesses righteousness is not limited to one time, culture, or people. Can I assume we at least agree on that?

Are you a pastor in a church? If so, then people COME to hear you! That's a whole lot different. Or if they seek you out at your home (as happens with my husband), then they want to listen and are ready to respond one way or the other.

I think we were talking past each other. I was not thinking in terms of pastors and sermons but in terms of everyday life and us common folk! I apologize for offending you and I'm sorry I mistook what was being said. The opening post seemed to be referring to 'just people' who were martyred.

In a church doctrine is extraordinarily important! I fully agree with that. But when I think of church, I do think of those who are already believers or at least professed believers coming together for worship and learning and prayer, etc.

And yes, we can take a good deal of what was said to the Israelites as principles in our own lives, too. I would never argue against that.

Please forgive me for misunderstanding where you were coming from.

For me, as a neighbor, as a mom, sister, friend, wife, etc., I have found it is vitally important when talking to someone about the Lord that they know me as a friend, at least, first, and have some amount of trust in my character. I pray they can see Christ in me, because that is Who I want them to respond to.

H,

All of us are to contend earnestly for the faith. Some of us have difficulty doing that without coming across as contentious. Sorry. Spent too many years on the debate team in high school.

I fully agree. Witnessing is always most effective in the context of an enduring personal relationship. Yet, I would also suggest that witnessing and passing out tracts can be effective if done in a manner that is consistent with Scripture and the patterns set by Jesus and the apostles. Both Jesus and the Apostles spoke to people with whom there was no time to establish a relationship.

And, certainly the whole soul winning thing has been abused by some, even by me at times. God knows our hearts and sometimes honors the faithful and pure intent of our hearts in spite of our own failures and shortcomings, praise Him, and Him alone.

Originally posted by Helen:
Please forgive me for misunderstanding where you were coming from.

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Thanks. Fully forgiven, though I may have been more in need of it than you.

EVERYBODY,

I cannot tell you how disarming those words were. To say "I am sorry" and not even add "if I misunderstood" has been about the most powerful thing I have seen here today. As God brought tears to my eyes over my own sometimes contentious spirit he also established a real bond between me and this dear sister in Christ. We may disagree about much, but I will never respond to her with as much intensity as I have in the past.

May we all learn from her gracious spirit.

In witnessing a person should not be taught doctrine, at least not anything beyond what the Holy Spirit will reveal to them -- sin, righteousness, and judgement.

In the church, as Helen noted, correct doctrine is critical. The church is not the place for evangelism! (That oughta get some comments!) The disciples gathered for edification, exhortation, and encouragement -- they scattered for evangelism.

Search in vain -- evangelism was what they WENT OUT to do. Edification, exhoration, and encouargement was what they assembled to do. Most churches put the cart before the horse, IMHO.

Originally posted by rjprince:
H,

All of us are to contend earnestly for the faith. Some of us have difficulty doing that without coming across as contentious. Sorry. Spent too many years on the debate team in high school.

I fully agree. Witnessing is always most effective in the context of an enduring personal relationship. Yet, I would also suggest that witnessing and passing out tracts can be effective if done in a manner that is consistent with Scripture and the patterns set by Jesus and the apostles. Both Jesus and the Apostles spoke to people with whom there was no time to establish a relationship.

And, certainly the whole soul winning thing has been abused by some, even by me at times. God knows our hearts and sometimes honors the faithful and pure intent of our hearts in spite of our own failures and shortcomings, praise Him, and Him alone.

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rjprince, this is quite well said, but I'd like to tweak just one statement. You said that "Both Jesus and the Apostles spoke to people with whom there was no time to establish a relationship." However, IMO, you are developing a relationship from the moment someone lays eyes on you or hears your voice. Your very tone of voice as you witness to someone "cold turkey" can influence them for or against Christ, and that, in my mind, is "relationship."

So in my church is H. San, who got a tract, sent me a postcard, and got saved the first time I witnessed to him. It was a short relationship before he got saved. Then there is U. San, who I counselled every week for a year, and who came to church for quite a while. Finally, when a Christian friend talked to him for 4 hours about Christ, he finally figured it out and got saved! I had a relationship with both men, however short or however long.

JofJ,

Good point. Relationship can be established from first contact and souls can be won the first time you meet them. My big gripe with the way SOME IFB's (and others) have treated the whole soul winning issue makes it much more like a sales presentation dealing with product objections and the moving to a hard sell close. The way it is often done leaves out the Holy Spirit and is totally insensitive to whether or not God is dealing with their hearts. As long as we can get them to repeat the rote magic prayer, they are saved, and I get notch on my gun belt, no, I meant another star in my crown.

Helen,

I love your posts. If you will go back and look at this particular thread, there is not one word spoken here meant to belittle or insult anyone as does frequently occur on this board. What has emerged is a well rounded conversation about doctrine where everyone's contribution seemed to add something constructive.