Did Jesus turn the water into wine, or grape juice

Good one Marcia and that was in the OT

 

SFIC still missing the point the bible NEVER condemns drinking wine it CONDEMNS getting drunk.

Quit spinning it.

Now how do you explain away Marcia's verse?

 

</font>[/QUOTE]That is a highly speculative question. To answer it one must go back into the Garden of Eden before the curse, and ask the question:
Would it have been possible in a perfect creation, where God himself said that everything was very good, for Adam and Eve to have become drunk?
In a perfect world without any curse I don't believe this would happen. Yeast that brings about fermentation is a form of corruption, and symbolic thereof. All of nature changed when Adam sinned. That is when mosquitoes began to suck the blood out of man, just as thorns began to infect the land.

When Jesus comes to set up His Kingdom, the curse will be removed and the land will go back to what it was as before the Fall. A child will play with an asp. The lion will lie down with the lamb. Nature will change. So the question will arise: Will it even be possible to become drunk in a perfect world where drunkenness is sin?
DHK

 

From what I gather, Deuteronomy 14:26 is referring to 'shekar' which indeed was a fermented wine. But we must look again at the context. 'Shekar was only used during religious festivals and not allowed every day. Also, it must be noted that to get drunk in OT times, one had to 'tarry long at the wine.'

Wine back then was not as strong as wine that is made today. This is proven by the fact that just one or two glasses of wine today will intoxicate a person to the point of being drunk.

In OT times, one had to drink much longer as is evident in the following verse...

Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

Deuteronomy 14 is still not a justification for drinking wine in moderation as many argue.

 

good post, DHK!

And it goes along with the lengthy posts I posted from Leighton G. Campbell's book, 'Wine in the Bible' earlier in this thread.

 

So, SFIC, is your argument mainly that it was okay to drink wine in Bible times because it was not as strong as it is today?

 

What about this one in the same Book of Deuteronomy. Is this a good one too?

Deuteronomy, chapter 29
4": Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

"5": And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

"6": Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God .


Isaiah, chapter 24

"9": They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
"10": The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

"11": There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.


Isaiah, chapter 5

"11": Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink ; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

 

DHK Duet was written after the fall, how you even tried to put that literal verse in the same catagory as the Garden of Eden is really spinning it to fit your stance. you just don't want to accept the fact that it was ok to drink wine but not to get drunk!

 

Marcia;
Could you please answer my last post?

 

there are several neutral, almost casual references to alcoholic beverages. Genesis 14:18 refers to Melchizedek, a type of Christ, as offering wine to Abram; Nehemiah 2:1 refers to the king drinking wine (Nehemiah was required to taste it (wine) first to make sure it was not poisoned); Esther 5:6; 7:1-2 speaks of wine that Esther (the godly Jewess) drank with the king; Job 1:13 refers to righteous Job’s family drinking wine; Daniel 10:3 speaks of drinking wine as a blessing after a time of fasting. Some of Jesus’ parables are about wine, wineskins, vineyards (cf. Matt 9:17; 21:33; even John 15 speaks of God the Father as the vinedresser!). Paul tells Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach’s sake and not just water (1 Tim 5:23). The same Greek and Hebrew terms that were used to speak of the abuses of wine are used in these passages. One cannot argue, therefore, that alcoholic beverages are in themselves proscribed, while grape juice is permitted. The lexical data cannot be so twisted.

There are, as well, positive statements about alcoholic beverages: Deut 14:26 implies that it is a good thing to drink wine and strong drink to the Lord: “And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household” (NASB). Psalm 4:7 compares joy in the Lord to the abundance of wine; Psalm 104:14-15 credits God as the creator of wine that “makes a man’s heart glad” (cf. also Hos 2:8); honoring the Lord with one’s wealth is rewarded with the blessings of abundant stores of wine (Prov 3:10); love is compared to wine repeatedly in the Song of Songs, as though good wine were similarly sweet (1:2, 4; 4:10; 7:9). The Lord prepares a banquet with “well-aged wines... and fine, well-aged wines” for his people (Isa 25:6) [obviously this cannot be grape juice, for aging does nothing but ferment it!].

The lack of wine is viewed as a judgment from God (Jer 48:33; Lam 2:12; Hos 2:9; Joel 1:10; Hag 2:16); and, conversely, its provision is viewed as a blessing from the Lord (cf. Gen 27:28; Deut 7:13; 11:14; Joel 2:19, 24; 3:18; Amos 9:13-14). Cf. also Isa 55:1; Jer 31:12; Zech 9:17.

Indeed, there was even the Passover tradition that went beyond the biblical teaching: by the time of the first century, every adult was obliged to have four glasses of wine during the Passover celebration. Jesus and his disciples did this in the Last Supper.6 The fact that the wine of the Passover was a symbol the Lord used for his blood and for the new covenant implicitly shows that our Lord’s view of wine was quite different from that of many modern Christians.

What is truly remarkable here are the many positive statements made about wine and alcoholic beverages in the Bible.7 Wine is so often connected with the blessings of God that we are hard-pressed to figure out why so many modern Christians view drink as the worst of all evils. Why, if one didn’t know better, he might think that God actually wanted us to enjoy life! Unfortunately, the only Bible most of our pagan friends will read is the one written on our lives and spoken from our lips. The Bible they know is a book of ‘Thou shalt nots,’ and the God they know is a cosmic killjoy.

I think the best balance on this issue can be see in Luke 7:33-34: John the Baptist abstained from drinking wine; Jesus did not abstain [indeed, people called him a drunkard! Although certainly not true, it would be difficult for this charge to have been made had Jesus only drunk grape juice]. Both respected one another and both recognized that their individual lifestyles were not universal principles. One man may choose not to drink; another may choose to drink. We ought not condemn another servant of the Lord for his choice.

As well, Romans 14 is a key passage for gleaning principles about how we ought to conduct ourselves in relation to one another on this issue: weaker brothers ought not to judge those whose freedom in Christ allows them to enjoy alcoholic beverages; stronger brothers ought not to disdain weaker brothers for their stance. Whether we drink or not, let us do all things to the glory of God.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=988

 

Good post Brother Bob!

It appears the allowance of strong drink during religious festivities was not God's will, but allowed because of their hearts desire.

God said in the passages you posted that He did not allow the wine that they might know He was God. Also, it is interesting that He would cause the strong drink to be bitter (wormwood? poison?)to those who were wanting to serve Him faithfully.

 

so explain away all the vesres above on wine being ok

 

There are plenty of condemnations of drinking wine and strong drink also.

I guess the strongest one is the one nobody has answered. Is and was Jesus a King? Why did God say John the Baptist would not be a wine drinker.

You answer mine!!

 

Since none will answer you, Brother Bob, I will attempt to share my knowledge in the matter.

Jesus definitely was a King. Just because He told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world did not negate the fact that He was King of kings.

As to John the Baptist, John's father Zacharias was a high priest and John was of the Levitical priesthood. John was also a Nazarite. Those two reasons alone forbad John from partaking of fermented beverages.

 

NO BB there are many verses that talk about NOT BEING DRUNK a point you all seem to not be able to grasp

drinking is ok...drinking to excess and getting drunk not ok.

 

The order of events at the Last Supper (and at every Passover which would include children).

1. a benediction.
2. cup of wine.
3. the hands of the company washed, the master of the feast passing the basin while reciting a prayer.
4. bitter herbs dipped in sauce and eaten.
5. the lamb brought in with other portions of the meal.
6. a benediction and second eating of bitter herbs.
7. a second cup of wine with questions and answers as to the origin of the feast.
8. singing of the first part of the Hallel (Psa. 113, 114).
9. the master of the feast washes his hands and makes a sop by wrapping a bit of lamb with unleavened bread in bitter herbs and dipping it in the sauce, for each one present in turn.
10. each eats as much as he likes, finishing with a piece of lamb.
11. a third cup of wine after washing hands.
12. singing of the second part of the Hallel (Psa.115-118).
13. a fourth cup of wine.

Four cups of wine! enough to inebriate any child, or even those who are not accustomed to drinking. Would Jesus use fermented wine on such an occasion when fermentation represents corruption? When four cups of fermented wine could well nigh cause any one of them to be drunk? Unfermented wine (grape juice) and fermented wine are the same word in the
Greek, just as cider could mean fermented or unfermented in the English.
DHK

 

Frenchy, and you and others seem to ignore Proverbs 23:31 that explicitly forbids fermented beverage.

 

so what if John wasn't a wine drinker, neither am i so am i better than John or anyone else? of course not.

he also only ate honey and locus...your point?

 

It was written after the fall by God, who speaks of a time when the curse will be again removed and the land will be returned again to its former state as before the fall.

 

SFIC I did answer it,in context it is talking about no being DRUNK go back and reread my post