Did Jesus turn the water into wine, or grape juice

Frenchy,

Wrong!!

It was not talking about being drunk. Go back and read the posts I put in this thread about wine in the Bible. Plenty scripture there to refute any advocate for alcohol.

 

I see i am dealing with legalist who are not able to rightly divide God's word. you all have been shown the truth with more than enough scripture verses to show you are wrong. The bible never says it is wrong to drink wine or strong drink the bible is clear that you shouldn't get DRUNK.

what you IFB do with the whole chapter of Romans 14 i will never know. tell me has any IFB ever heard a sermon preached accuratly on Romans 14, if so you must be in a good church.

i'm done goodbye

[ April 01, 2006, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Frenchy ]

 

Did someone say you couldn't be saved and be a drunk? Where is the legalist? I think all the man has asked is how you get 'drink moderately' from 'look not upon'? Is it ok to drink as long as your eyes are closed?

 

Alcohol-A Symbol Of Sin And Death

Romans 5:12 states:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned.

When man sinned, a vast change took place in his spiritual condition. Spiritual and physical death was sentenced upon him (Genesis 3:3). Even the animals turned wild, judging by Isaiah 11:1-8, which shows that the animals will again become tame when Jesus Christ restores peace to a sinful world.

There was also a change in the earth through God's curse:

And unto Adam he said, because thou hast harkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat of it all the days of thy life. (Genesis 3:17, 18)

Since as this text clearly shows, that the food being brought from the earth was to bring sorrow to man, we can see that the destructive laws of fermentation was one of a number of processes that God put into operation because of man's sin. Although the above Bible text does not specifically mentioned fermentation, it must still naturally apply here. Seeing it is connected with death, and death with sin. It is therefore obviously clear that God did not intend that man should drink in any quantity, something which was symbolic of sin and death, and which was also harmful to his body and mind.

Alcohol is not a natural product of the creative hand of God, but rather a repulsive agent of sin which man in his own regenerate mind uses against himself. Patton quotes Dr. Henry Monroe in his lecture on alcohol, as saying:

Alcohol is nowhere to be found in any product of nature; was never created by God; but is essentially an artificial thing prepared by man through the disruptive process of fermentation.

Let us take a look at some of the things some well-known men say about alcohol:

Shakespeare:

Alcohol is a poison men take into the mouth to steal away the brain.

Abraham Lincoln:

A cancer in human society, eating out its vitals and threatening its destruction.

General Robert E. Lee:

My experience through life has convinced me that abstinence from spiritous liquors is the best safeguard to morals and health.


Ruskin:

The most criminal and artistic method of assassination ever invented by the bravos of any age or nation.

Robert Hall:

Distilled damnation.

Lord Chesterfield:

An artist in human slaughter.

General Pershing:

Drunkenness has killed more men than all of history's wars, pestilence, and famine.

Sir Wilfred Lawson:

THE DEVIL IN SOLUTION.

After looking at these wise comments, it becomes extremely hard to imagine how any Christian can say that our Lord Jesus Christ, the greatest Man that ever walked the face of this earth: exceedingly greater than the greatest of these men in wisdom, holiness and power would transform pure and harmless water into a deadly and harmful substance, which could potentially kill the people He created and loved so much. To make such an allegation is not only outrageous, but it is also a slur on the reputation of our Lord.

It is thus self-evident that due to the disruptive nature of alcoholic beverages to man's health, that it is a fitting symbol of spiritual death. Alcoholic wine is used in Scripture as a symbol of God's divine wrath:

You have made your people suffer hard things; You have given us to drink wine that made us reel and be dazed. (Psalm 60:3, Amplified Bible)

For thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, to me: take this cup of the wine of wrath from my hand, and cause all nations to whom I send you to drink it. They shall drink and reel to and fro and be crazed, because of the sword that I will send among them. (Jeremiah 25:15, 16 Amplified Bible)

For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup [of his wrath], and the wine foams and is red, well mixed; and He pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth must drain it and drink its dregs. (Psalms 75:8, Amplified Bible)

He too shall [have to] drink of the wine of God's indignation and wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (Revelation 14:10, Amplified Bible)

A paper published by the Teachers Advisory Council on Alcohol and Drug Education, quoted the following statistics:

When a person is under the influence of alcohol he is more prone to accidents on the roads or with machinery. In 1974 35% of all drivers who died in road accidents had been drinking.

In 1977, a working party on alcohol and work reported the following:

Three times as many people with a drinking problem are involved in accidents at work than other people.

People with a drinking problem on average lose two to three times as many working days through sickness than do other workers.

The cost to British Industry through alcohol problems is estimated to be getting close to £350 million.

The report went on to say:

The latest known research indicated that 89% of heavy drinkers in prison claimed that alcohol had played an important part in causing their last crime.

Alcohol is also responsible for numerous deaths in America and other countries all over the world, it is plain to see that, the wages of sin is death. People would do well in heeding God's warning:

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

Excerpt from 'Wine in the Bible' by Leighton G. Campbell

 

Frenchy;
My point is that there is the Law Covenant and there is the Grace Covenant. John the Baptist came to make ready a people for the coming of the Lord for the Grace Covenant. And also, there are these scriptures:

1 Samuel, chapter 1

"14": And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.

"15": And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD


Leviticus, chapter 10

8": And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,

"9": Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

"10": And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

"11": And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.


Luke, chapter 1

15": For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

Frenchy,
You are entitled to your opinions.
It is called soul liberty--the freedom to express them and disagree with one another.
Posting rules #3 and #4 state that you must express yourself in grace, without offence, and without personal attacks or innuendos. If you cannot do this do not post. Yes, IFB's have read Romans 14 and have come to a oompletely different conclusion than you have. Your condescension of them is completely unwarranted. Please keep the discussion civil, and address the issue being discussed, not the posters discussing the issue.
DHK

 

there are several neutral, almost casual references to alcoholic beverages. Genesis 14:18 refers to Melchizedek, a type of Christ, as offering wine to Abram; Nehemiah 2:1 refers to the king drinking wine (Nehemiah was required to taste it (wine) first to make sure it was not poisoned); Esther 5:6; 7:1-2 speaks of wine that Esther (the godly Jewess) drank with the king; Job 1:13 refers to righteous Job’s family drinking wine; Daniel 10:3 speaks of drinking wine as a blessing after a time of fasting. Some of Jesus’ parables are about wine, wineskins, vineyards (cf. Matt 9:17; 21:33; even John 15 speaks of God the Father as the vinedresser!). Paul tells Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach’s sake and not just water (1 Tim 5:23). The same Greek and Hebrew terms that were used to speak of the abuses of wine are used in these passages. One cannot argue, therefore, that alcoholic beverages are in themselves proscribed, while grape juice is permitted. The lexical data cannot be so twisted.

There are, as well, positive statements about alcoholic beverages: Deut 14:26 implies that it is a good thing to drink wine and strong drink to the Lord: “And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household” (NASB). Psalm 4:7 compares joy in the Lord to the abundance of wine; Psalm 104:14-15 credits God as the creator of wine that “makes a man’s heart glad” (cf. also Hos 2:8); honoring the Lord with one’s wealth is rewarded with the blessings of abundant stores of wine (Prov 3:10); love is compared to wine repeatedly in the Song of Songs, as though good wine were similarly sweet (1:2, 4; 4:10; 7:9). The Lord prepares a banquet with “well-aged wines... and fine, well-aged wines” for his people (Isa 25:6) [obviously this cannot be grape juice, for aging does nothing but ferment it!].

The lack of wine is viewed as a judgment from God (Jer 48:33; Lam 2:12; Hos 2:9; Joel 1:10; Hag 2:16); and, conversely, its provision is viewed as a blessing from the Lord (cf. Gen 27:28; Deut 7:13; 11:14; Joel 2:19, 24; 3:18; Amos 9:13-14). Cf. also Isa 55:1; Jer 31:12; Zech 9:17.

Indeed, there was even the Passover tradition that went beyond the biblical teaching: by the time of the first century, every adult was obliged to have four glasses of wine during the Passover celebration. Jesus and his disciples did this in the Last Supper.6 The fact that the wine of the Passover was a symbol the Lord used for his blood and for the new covenant implicitly shows that our Lord’s view of wine was quite different from that of many modern Christians.

What is truly remarkable here are the many positive statements made about wine and alcoholic beverages in the Bible.7 Wine is so often connected with the blessings of God that we are hard-pressed to figure out why so many modern Christians view drink as the worst of all evils. Why, if one didn’t know better, he might think that God actually wanted us to enjoy life! Unfortunately, the only Bible most of our pagan friends will read is the one written on our lives and spoken from our lips. The Bible they know is a book of ‘Thou shalt nots,’ and the God they know is a cosmic killjoy.

I think the best balance on this issue can be see in Luke 7:33-34: John the Baptist abstained from drinking wine; Jesus did not abstain [indeed, people called him a drunkard! Although certainly not true, it would be difficult for this charge to have been made had Jesus only drunk grape juice]. Both respected one another and both recognized that their individual lifestyles were not universal principles. One man may choose not to drink; another may choose to drink. We ought not condemn another servant of the Lord for his choice.

As well, Romans 14 is a key passage for gleaning principles about how we ought to conduct ourselves in relation to one another on this issue: weaker brothers ought not to judge those whose freedom in Christ allows them to enjoy alcoholic beverages; stronger brothers ought not to disdain weaker brothers for their stance. Whether we drink or not, let us do all things to the glory of God.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=988
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njprince;
So you agree that Jesus is and was a King, then how you justify the following Scripture with what you just said. Remember we are saying Jesus did not drink wine with alcohol wine?

Proverbs, chapter 31
"4": It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

 

John the Baptizer had taken the Nazarite vow, and was therefore prohibited from drinking wine. Jesus was a Nazarene, which is not the same thing.

Jesus today is our high priest. He will one day be the King of Kings, though.

So, is the Kingdom corrupt?

Matthew 13:33: Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Typical quote of someone who cannot apply Scripture properly. Where does the lion ever spend quality time with a lamb?

 

What is your problem with Scripture. I made my point with Scripture how there will be a change in the course of nature. Do you have a problem with that? Take it up with God. He wrote the Scriptures. In the Kingdom the curse will be removed. That is one example how the curse will be removed. The lion and the lamb do not presently get along. In the future kingdoom they will.
DHK

 

Hope of Glory;
I suppose that Jesus would be disappointed to hear you say He did not have a Kingdom?


Luke, chapter 17
"21": Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Luke, chapter 17


"20": And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

"21": Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John, chapter 18

"36": Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

Jesus would not have drank alcoholic wine. He was our High Priest after the order of Melchizadek. He was the Prince of Peace. He was and is, King of kings.

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

 

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7-8 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

 

DHK,

I look forward to that time when Isaiah spoke about!

 

nj, read my three posts concerning 'Wine in the Bible.' All is refuted there.

 

rjprince;
quote
BBob,

I do not have to justify a passage that was speaking of kings in general over against a clear passage that states plainly that Jesus did drink wine. The rule is interpret the unclear or general passage in light of the clear and specific passage. Prov 31:4 is a general principle that was taught by the mother of the king. It was not a hard fast rule of life that was followed by all the kings of Israel. Shoot, even Solomon himself did not follow HIS OWN advice, see -- Eccl 2:3.

OK. I have responded to your passage. Can you do the same?

Response:

Some answer, you don't have to justify a passage that says Kings are not to drink wine and Jesus being a King.

You have no idea if the wine was alcohol or not and have no way of knowing. There was some pretty bad wine there that day. Maybe some of them used lighter fluid to speed up the germination, I know some of these Old Time Mountiain men that did.

You just give a remark to get around a Scripture, that is no way to debate.